Oct. 10, 2026

Comedy Deep Dive - Norm Macdonald: Anti-Comedy, SNL OJ Jokes, and the Quiet Final Years

Show Notes
Transcript

Johnny Mac profiles Norm Macdonald, highlighting his belief that jokes should surprise and never pander, and noting that his death similarly shocked fans because he privately battled multiple myeloma diagnosed in 2013 that became acute leukemia, telling only family and producing partner Lori while continuing podcasts, Netflix work, talk shows, and scheduled 2021 dates. The script traces his path from Quebec City and Ottawa stand-up to writing on Roseanne and becoming the defining Weekend Update anchor in 1993, with a deadpan style that blurred absurdity and truth. It recounts his OJ Simpson jokes, conflict with NBC executive Don Ohlmeyer, and firing. It also covers key relationships and appearances with David Letterman and Conan O’Brien, the infamous “moth” joke, the Bob Saget roast, favorite bits from the 2006 album Ridiculous, the 2016 memoir, and the one-take 2020 living-room special Nothing Special released in 2022.

00:00 Norms Comedy Ethos
00:32 Secret Illness Revealed
01:39 Early Life and SNL Rise
03:00 OJ Jokes and Fallout
06:18 Anti Comedy Explained
06:43 Letterman Bond
08:06 Conan Sparring Partner
11:21 Moth Joke Masterclass
13:28 Roast and Meta Humor
15:31 Ridiculous Album Highlights
20:43 Memoir and Final Special
22:35 Closing Conan Story

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WEBVTT

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Hi there, I'm Johnny Mac, and on Saturdays, we've been

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doing deep dives into one particular comedian. Today, let's take

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a look at Norm MacDonald, and we've got that documentary

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coming out soon. Norm once wrote that a joke should

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catch someone by surprise and should never pander. That sentence

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appeared in a statement released the day that he died.

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It was written by his longtime friend and producing partner, Laurie,

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who was describing what Norm MacDonald believed about comedy. It's

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a good sentence, a true sentence, and it applies to

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the death itself, which caught everybody by surprise because Norm

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Macdonald had been sick for nine years and nobody knew.

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He was diagnosed in 2013, multiple myeloma, a cancer affecting

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white blood cells. That developed into acute leukemia. He told

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his family, he told Lori, and basically no one else.

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Not his comedy friends, not Conan, not Letterman, not Chappelle,

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not Sandler, not Spade. He did his podcast from 2013

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to 2018. He did the Netflix series in 2018. He

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did press tours and talk show appearances and stand-up dates

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right to the end. He was scheduled to perform at

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the New York Comedy Festival in November of 2021. He

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passed away September 14th, 2021, at 61 years old. His

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brother Neil told the CBC that he had kept it

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quiet because he didn't want it to affect his comedy

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and he didn't want it to affect the way he

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was perceived. The man who spent his career making jokes

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about death, darkness, about the fundamental absurdity of being alive,

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had spent the last nine years of his life quietly

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making sure that the cancer didn't become the bit. He

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protected the comedy from the cancer the same way he

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protected everything he cared about, which is by keeping it

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separate from anything that could soften it or make the

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audience feel like they needed to be gentle. Norman Gene MacDonald,

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born October 17th, 1959 in Quebec City. He moved to

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Ottawa as a child and started doing stand-up in Canada

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as a teenager and got good at it fast enough

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that by the late 80s he was moving to New York,

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working in the same clubs everybody worked, getting noticed in

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a way that people got noticed, slowly, by the right people.

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Before Saturday Night Live, he worked as a writer on

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Roseanne in 1992. That gave him a TV credit and

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discipline and not much of the way of a public profile.

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He joined the SNL cast in 1993. The Weekend Update

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role is where most people found him and most people

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know him from, and the specific way that he did

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Weekend Update was unlike anything the segment had produced before

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or has produced since. Norm had a way at looking

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at the camera that suggested mild confusion about why any

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of this was funny, combined with absolute confidence that it was,

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delivered in a voice that seemed to be reading the

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jokes for the first time, even though they were tightly

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rehearsed material.

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Real estate mogul Donald Trump announced this week that after

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three and a half years of marriage, he is seeking

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a divorce from wife Marla Maples. According to Trump, Maples

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violated part of their marriage agreement when she decided to

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turn 30.

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The deadpan was not a choice that he made for

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each joke. It was a foundational operating condition that everything

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ran through. He could say something completely absurd and something

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completely true in the same sentence and in the same

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tone of voice. And the audience had to do the

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work of figuring out which was which. The O.J. material

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is the chapter of his SNL career that gets told

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the most often because it got him in a little

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bit of trouble. Norm made O.J.

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Jokes.

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NBC executive Don Ulmeier was friends with O.J. Simpson, so

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Norm got fired. That's the simple version. Norm wasn't making O.J.

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jokes because they were edgy, because they generated attention. He

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was making them because he generally believed O.J. killed Nicole

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Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman because he thought it was

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wrong that the entertainment world was moving on and because...

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He was incapable of pretending otherwise, even when the institution

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wanted him to pretend otherwise.

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According to retailers, the most popular Halloween mask this year

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is O.J.

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Simpson.

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And the most popular Halloween greeting is, I'll kill you

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and that guy who's bringing over your glasses.

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Or a trait.

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And the Pope came out with a book this week,

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which contains a series of essays examining faith and morality

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in today's secular world and the changing role of the

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Catholic Church as it approaches the 21st century. The book

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is entitled, God Himself Told Me That O.J.

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Is Guilty.

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Thank you. In other book news, Prince Charles released an

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autobiography in which he states that he never loved Princess

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Di and that his father pressured him to marry her.

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The book is entitled, Of Course O.J.

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Did It.

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I mean, come on. In his book, O.J. Simpson says

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that he would have taken a bullet or stood in front.

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Of a train for Nicole.

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Man, I'm going to tell you, that is some bad

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luck when the one guy who would have.

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Died for you kills you.

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That's it.

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You don't get worse luck than that.

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And O.J.

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Announced this week that he's coming out with a new

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book called I Want to Tell You. And if it's successful, O.J.

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will work on yet another book entitled From Football to Prison,

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My 25 Years of Showering with Other Men. And finally,

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in honor of the 50th anniversary of their first publication,

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Random House will be releasing special commemorative issues of many Dr.

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Seuss classics. The first to hit the bookshelves will be

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Green Eggs and Ham and O.J. is Guilty.

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After the not guilty verdict in 1995, he opened Weekend

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Update with, well, it's official, murder is now legal in

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the state of California. When grisly crime scene photos were

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shown in court and O.J. turned away and wept, Norm

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MacDonald said, O.J. realized he'd never be able to kill

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her again. At the ESPYs in 1998, he was presenting

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the Heisman Trophy Award to Charles Woodson. He congratulated Woodson

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and said no one could take it away from him.

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He became the first defensive player to win the Heisman Trophy. Congratulations, Charles.

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That is something that no one can ever take away

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from you. Unless you kill your wife in a waiter,

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in which case.

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When OJ died in April 2024, Norm had been dead

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for three years already. Norm's name immediately trended alongside OJ's

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because the internet understood the correct response to the news

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was a Norm MacDonald joke. Norm was fired mid-season, so

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this isn't like one of those quiet walkaway at the end.

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It was mid-season and replaced on Weekend Update by Colin Quinn.

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What Norm was doing on Weekend Update was anti-comedy, really

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before that was a term. It's a joke that's not

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quite a joke that builds towards a punchline and then

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holds the punchline back or comes in so aggressive. that

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the simplicity is funnier than any twist would have been.

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Anti-comedy takes a standard joke structure and runs it so

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past its expected ending that the audience's discomfort becomes the material.

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Norm Macdonald was working in that space before most people

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identified it as a space, and he did it better

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than just about anyone. Norm Macdonald's relationship with David Letterman

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will tell you the most about who Norm was outside

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of his comedy persona because it was genuine in a

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way that wasn't performed for the audience. Letterman had been

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an idol to him. He said so directly multiple times.

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When Letterman chose who would do the final stand-up set

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of the entire run of Late Show in 2015, he

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picked Norm MacDonald.

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Thanks, guys.

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Listen, I don't want to brag or anything, but me

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and Oprah are making the same money tonight.

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Yeah, Letterman picked Norm MacDonald, not Jerry Seinfeld, who was

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also on that week. Not any of the big talent

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that had passed through the show across 33 years. Letterman

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picked Norm MacDonald. Dave said, if we could have, we

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would have had Norm on every week. He's funny in

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a way that some people inhale and exhale. After Norm

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did his set, he told Letterman on camera that Dave

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was the greatest talk show host who ever lived and

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started to cry, said, I love you, and Letterman, who

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spent his career being distant, didn't deflect it.

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All right, welcome back to the big show.

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Let me just get rid of this doll of steak.

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So, Paul is.

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Working out today. You know what health club I work

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out there.

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Don't you, Paul?

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No, which one?

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Work out at Crunch.

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So his waiter comes to our table, Paul. He's one

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of the real oily guy. You know, those kind of guys,

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real oily. He looks right at me, gives me one

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of these like, hey, enjoying your shrimp?

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Norm Macdonald's relationship with Conan is a little different because

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Conan was his sparring partner and co-conspirator across two decades

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of TV appearances. The dynamic they developed is hard to recreate.

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Norm appeared on Conan's various shows from the 1230 show

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through the TBS version. Each appearance had the same basic structure.

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Norm would start a story. The story would go somewhere

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a little crazy. Conan would react. Norm would use Conan's

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reaction as material and build jokes out of Conan's reaction

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rather than do his own prepared stuff.

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I like that Madonna's baby thing.

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Oh, yeah, yeah.

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You know, I really have to give it to that

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guy that's the father, you know?

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Carlos.

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Leon. Carlos Leon.

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Or Carlos Leon. I forget which one.

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Because you've got to have a lot of guts. That

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means he had sex with Madonna without a condom.

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That's great.

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You know what I always admire about you, Norm? You

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like to set the tone right away. You like to

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come out and sort of set the table for everybody

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and say, this is what we'll be doing. Very nice. Well,

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you know, you've got to be thinking of these all

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the time, right?

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You're doing the update.

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I call it the update gig. You don't mind if

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I call it that.

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Yeah, the update gig, I do it.

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And to do that, I have to every day comb

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the papers, you know, comb them.

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I don't really call them. Figure of speech, yeah.

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And I read them. First I check the NBA lines

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for the night, you know, find out what I'm going

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to bet on.

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And then I go.

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Straight to the news, you know, find out what news

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figure I'm going to skewer. So, interesting story I say

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this week is that on Rikers Island, they have banned,

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like two months ago, they banned pornography, any porno magazines

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from the prison. you know, because I don't know why

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they did it, but now... And now I just read

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the headline.

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Sure, you don't need to know that part. Right. Who

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cares about that part?

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Right.

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But now they had to bring it back this week.

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So they had a compromise. They're allowing one porno magazine.

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Only one?

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Only one. Unfortunately, the porno magazine that they're putting in

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is Hairy Guy's Ass Illustrated. Really?

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Well, if you're going to only allow one, I would

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think that's the one, you know, probably.

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In 1997, Norm Macdonald derailed an interview with Courtney Thorne Smith.

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She was there to promote a movie she'd made with

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Carrot Top. Norm Macdonald wouldn't let the movie be discussed

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without making it worse, suggesting that the word bored in

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the title should be spelled B-O-R-E-D. Thorne Smith covered her face.

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Conan fell out of his chair.

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She's a beautiful lady and a talented, nice talk show guest.

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As evidenced by her appearance on our rival show. All right,

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well there's this two hour season finale of Melrose Place.

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There's this movie coming out.

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Yes.

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Title undetermined at this point. Chairman of the Board.

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Oh, all right.

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Do something with that, you freak.

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I bet the board is spelled B-O-R-E-D.

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And then there's the moth joke, probably the most analyzed

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four minutes in the history of late night TV comedy.

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It aired on Conan's Tonight Show in 2009. Norm was

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supposed to do one segment. He did it. And then

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Conan asked him during the break to stay for a

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second segment. Norm had nothing prepared, nothing at all.

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A moth goes into a podiatrist's office.

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A moth goes into a podiatrist's office.

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You are correct.

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A moth goes into a podiatrist's office and the podiatrist's

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office says, what's the problem? And the moth says, what's

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the problem? Where do I begin, man? He goes, I

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go to work for Gregory Alinovich and all day long

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I work. Honestly, Doc, I don't even know what I'm

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doing anymore. I don't even know if Gregory Alinovich knows anything.

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He only knows that he has power over me, and

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that seems to bring him happiness.

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He remembered a 20-second joke he had heard from Colin

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Quinn and started telling it. Asking Conan how long the

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segment was and hoping the answer would be 20 seconds,

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Conan said seven minutes. So Norm took a 20-second joke

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about a moth and a podiatrist and in real time,

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without prep, turned it into seven minutes.

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He says, Doc, sometimes I feel like a spider, even

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though I'm a moth. just barely hanging on to my

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web with an everlasting fire underneath me. I'm not feeling good.

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And so the doctor says, moth, man, you're troubled. But

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you should be seeing a psychiatrist. Why on earth did

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you come here? And then the moth said, because the

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light was on.

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Conan's laugh at the end is the laugh of someone

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genuinely surprised by something rather than the professional host laugh that,

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you know, sounds like a laugh. You see a lot

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of that on Late Night. Conan said that Norm did

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the joke on the fly. His way to show it

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down was to invent a Chekhov play with Russian names

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and ineffable sadness. That's what he came up with in

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the commercial break with nothing prepared. Then there's the Bob

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Saget roast appearance in 2008. Norm got up and told

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gentle jokes, not accidentally gentle, deliberately aggressively gentle. Jokes from

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an old joke book, the kind of jokes your grandfather

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might tell, disconnected from anything edgy. The room didn't know

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what to do with it. Jim Norton was there, and

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he said watching it was like watching Henry Fonda pick blueberries,

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which is very Norton and a great description of what

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it looked like.

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Bob, you have a lot of well-wishers here tonight, and

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a lot of them would like to throw you down one.

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Well.

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They want to murder you in a well. Seems a

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little harsh, but apparently they want to murder you in

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a well. It says here on this card. Now, but

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Bob has a beautiful face, like a flower. Yeah, cauliflower.

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No offense, but Your face looks like a cauliflower. As

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you can see, he has wavy hair. It's waving goodbye

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on account he's going bald. No, I think that Bob

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should join the Ku Klux Klan. And that's not because

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he's racist. He's not racist. It's just that he'd look

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a lot better with a hood over his head on

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account of his face.

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For Norm, it was a perfectly constructed meta-joke about the

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roast format itself delivered so straight that the audience either

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had to get it or watch it go completely over

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their head, which is Norm. I'm a huge fan of

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Norm Macdonald's album Ridiculous. It's a sketch album. I'll call

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out a couple bits here. My favorite favorite is The

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Fantastic Four. Spoilers, the setup here is everybody gets a

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cool nickname except Mr. Fantastic.

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Ben Grimm? You are a rock-like thing of a man.

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You will be called The Thing.

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Great.

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Sue Storm, you're a woman who has the power to

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make herself invisible. The Invisible Woman is your name from

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now on.

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Good. Johnny Storm, you are human, and yet you are

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a torch.

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Yeah.

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The Human Torch.

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The Human Torch. Okay.

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And I, Reed Richards, can stretch my body like a

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rubber band. I will be Mr. Fantastic. Okay, let's get

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on to business. First order of business for the Fantastic Four.

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Dr.

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Doom has the entire world's plutonium supply.

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Excuse me for a second.

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Yes, Ben.

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Never mind, never mind.

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What is it, Ben?

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It's nothing, it's nothing, nothing.

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Ben, we have to speak openly here.

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Well, it's just about the names.

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Do you like yours or the thing?

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No, I'm fine with that. It just seems a little... Well,

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I'm kind of a thing of a man. You're calling

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me the thing. Sue is a woman who can become invisible.

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She's the invisible woman.

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Makes sense.

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Johnny is human, yet a torch. So he's the human torch, right?

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Sure.

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And you can stretch your arms like a rubber band.

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And you've named yourself Mr.

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Fantastic.

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Yes, it's fantastic.

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Another great sketch is the gambling sportscaster. Let's take a

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quick listen to that.

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The Jacksonville Jaguars play host to the New York Jets.

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And Danny, the Jaguars come into this game as big favorites.

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But will they live up to the hype?

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Well, they are big favorites, Jim. No doubt about that.

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Nine and a half points to be exact. Now, what

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that means is if a person bet the Jaguars on

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a parlay with, let's say, Cincinnati, who, as we know,

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won earlier today. That would pay that person 13 to 5. So,

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if a person had bet, let's say, $ 127, 000, that would

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pay off $ 457, 200. That would cover any bad wagers that

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that person would have made in the past. Why, it's

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like wiping the slate clean, Jim. That person would be

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even for the first time in his life.

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Well, there's no question the Jaguars are a powerhouse offense.

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But let's be honest, this football team is only as

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good as its quarterback, Mark Brunel.

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No doubt about that, Jim.

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When Brunel is healthy, the Jags are unbeaten and, furthermore,

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have covered the spread each and every time.

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Now, without Brunel, they have eaten it and eaten it hard.

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00:18:16.579 --> 00:18:19.549
So with a healthy Brunel out there today, that parlay

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looks to be money in the bank.

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00:18:21.380 --> 00:18:23.869
But is he healthy? That has to be the big

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00:18:23.930 --> 00:18:24.970
question mark here today.

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00:18:25.490 --> 00:18:27.549
Well, I have to disagree with you there, Jim. I

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have heard absolutely no one question this young quarterback's health.

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00:18:30.890 --> 00:18:33.569
Well, Danny, I ran into him at the hotel this morning,

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and to me, he looked pale. He complained of stomach

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pains and nausea. He had, in a nutshell, flu-like symptoms. Ha!

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00:18:42.529 --> 00:18:44.930
Are you kidding? Brunel's looking great out there. He will

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easily cover the spread. Easily. Very easily.

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Flu.

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What are you, a doctor? What are you, suddenly Dr.

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Jim Lampley?

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00:18:53.130 --> 00:18:56.049
And I also like Stan and Lois.

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Hey, if Lois Lane only knew that you were Superman,

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in no time you would be having sex with her.

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00:19:02.779 --> 00:19:04.819
Hmm.

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Then and there, Stan Hooper began to hatch a plot.

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He would convince Lois Lane that Superman's secret identity was

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in fact Stan Hooper, not Clark Kent. Then and only

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then could he realize his fiendish dream of seeing Lois

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Lane naked.

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Oh, my God, look out the window.

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There's a meteor headed right towards Metropolis.

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Great Caesar's ghost. If only Superman were here. Excuse me,

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I have to make a phone call.

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You do?

390
00:19:32.109 --> 00:19:32.210
Oh.

391
00:19:33.390 --> 00:19:37.109
Hey, hey, Lois. What, Stan? Listen, I gotta go make

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a phone call.

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Okay.

394
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Huh?

395
00:19:39.390 --> 00:19:42.390
Yeah, I'll be back probably after that meteor thing's settled,

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