Sept. 23, 2025

Love Johnny Carson author Mark Makloff takes us Inside Late Night

Love Johnny Carson author Mark Makloff takes us Inside Late Night

Mark Malkoff, host of the Inside Late Night podcast and the Carson podcast, has a new bookhttps://amzn.to/3KeDlzS, and given the news cycle it seemed a great time to catch up with him. Note we taped this on Monday afternoon before we learned Kimmel...

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Mark Malkoff, host of the Inside Late Night podcast and the Carson podcast, has a new book Love Johnny Carson, and given the news cycle it seemed a great time to catch up with him.

Note we taped this on Monday afternoon before we learned Kimmel was back tongiht, but that really only affects like two sentences in this hour plus episode.

The normal Tuesday episode is earlier in the feed.

Johnny Mac will be back with a Kimmel bonus in a few hours.

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WEBVTT

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Callaroga Shark Media.

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It's me again, Hello, Johnny Mack with your daily comedy

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news bonus edition. Earlier today, the normal Tuesday episode went

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out later today, I will have a Jimmy Kimmel bonus

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episode for you, as Jimmy Kimmel is returning to Jimmy

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Kimmel Live tonight, so that should be exciting. Give us

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all something to talk about this episode. My guest is

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Mark Malcoff. You know Mark.

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He used to host The Carson Podcast. He currently hosts

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the Inside Late Night podcast. Boy, I hope they can

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find something to talk about. And as I discovered on

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the fly as we recorded this interview, that's back today

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for a new season. Totally accidental.

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I reached out to the guy because he was on

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my radar anyway because of the book, and then there

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was this whole Jimmy Kimmel thing, so that worked out

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for both of us. He also has that new book

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it is called Love Johnny Carson. In this conversation with

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Mark Malcoff, author of Love, Johnny Carson, host of the

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Carson Podcast, host of Inside Late Night, we'd talk about

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Johnny Carson, but also words like leno letterman, fallon Colbert

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and oh yes, Kimmel gets said. So here's my conversation

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with Mark Malkoff and Johnny. Mack started with a long

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winded question, I definitely want to talk to you about

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Carson a lot up front. I'm sure we'll get to

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the other news of the week. I'm struggling here. If

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we could do like some sort of Marvel movie time

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travel and somehow insert Johnny Carson into this current era

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of kumbaya, we all get along. I don't mind that

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you have another talk show at eleven thirty on the

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other network, and I'm not sure I can even get there.

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But if I can, I'm struggling to imagine Johnny doing, say,

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what Stephen Colbert has done, or what David Letterman has done.

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I was trying to channel my inner Johnny this morning,

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and with all apologies, the best I could come up

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with would be a joke, something like I on the

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way over here, I saw Jimmy Kimmel working at the

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Windy's and then looking left right, did that joke? Land?

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I can't picture him doing a ten minutes die tribe

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about the government to the FCC as a Carson expert.

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What do you think, Johnny Carson would somehow do in

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twenty twenty.

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Five, I think he would probably just be doing the

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same show that he did for thirty years. But I

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mean it did upset presidential administrations. Like Nancy Reagan called

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the show twice and was upset. Gerald Borg said it

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was a love hate relationship. Jimmy Carter's mom, Lillian called

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Carson and ass, I don't know if you can swear

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on this, but until she met him and went on

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the show, and then she thought she he was delightful.

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So you know him, like Jay Leno, like Conan, they

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were always doing hammering whoever was in office. It was

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just you know, they were you couldn't You've never knew

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where Johnny was voting. I mean, he would hammer. When

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he found out that the Reagans were upset with his jokes,

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he said, that's surprising. He thought we were tougher on

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Carter or Jimmy Carter. But I think it was since

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well Rogers just like you have people like this that

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just did this. But it was definitely very different for

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somebody to take like Colbert and Kimmel to take stanzas

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but it's different, you know, people forget I think that

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first year when Colbert was on, he wasn't taking his stance.

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He was getting cloppered in the Ravens. He was number three,

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He was doing the show he wanted to do, and

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Trump was on the show with him, and I thought

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he was easy on him, and Stevens acknowledged that. But

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I think Carson was just doing the same show. I mean,

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his rule up until he retired in Burbank was no

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politicians in all office. And he broke it twice, only

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once for Reagan on the anniversary show in seventy two

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because they were out of videotape because NBC he found

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out how it erased the first ten years and they

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needed big stars, and Reagan did five minutes, and then

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once with Clinton only because he did saxophone and he

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was not famous. They booked him as a civilian, which

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was for the non famous people in eighty eight. Were

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in nineteen eighty eight when they got in trouble with

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the DNC speaking for thirty three minutes when he's supposed

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to do fifteen, and he was getting just trounced in

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Carson's monologue, and then those are the only two times,

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so he just yeah, it was it was a different show,

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and I just think times change, and yeah, and I

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think Johnny would definitely, I think, just get this huge

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kind of like just be baffled by the whole thing. Today.

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I did see over the weekend some Trump joke circulating,

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one with a joke about Jennifer Flowers being the backup mistress.

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So there were a couple of things like that, but

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they were later in Johnny's tenure. But yeah, I can't

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imagine him doing you know, ten minutes about the way

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cold Err is doing it his way outside. I think

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two with Johnny and Letterman got into this as well.

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There's a type of needling joke that's just fun among friends,

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like a Mark Malkoff joke. Punchline might be he's probably

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watching a Carson rerun, like it's a harmless joke, whether

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it's true or not, as opposed to you know, digging

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in about you know why so and so is a

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horrible person. I think you're right that it's just a

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different time.

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Dave took a different approach the later years. I think

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after he said John Stewart on cable was, you know,

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was going after politicians and taking kind of a stance

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that Letterman, Yeah, Letterman just you know, he emulated he

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wanted to know what did Johnny do at this point

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in his career and trying to emulate him. But the

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thing that he the one thing that he didn't was, yeah,

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he started to get a little bit with his political views,

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and I think that that probably gave room for the

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others to do it a little bit. I mean, I

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do find the Colberts first season very interesting when he

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didn't try to do that again, him and Kimmel a

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two hundred people, you know, staff and crew that depend

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on him. And I get why Colbert did what he

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did just because he was number one. When you're number

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one and it's working, you just keep doing what is working.

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But you definitely, like Carson was very much like you're

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going to alienate fifty percent. Like I talk about it,

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like David Steinberg was doing a Nixon thing and Carson

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routine and Nixon it is getting some laughs, but at

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the braid, Carson just told Steinberg it's like you're losing

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half your audience. It doesn't bother me, but they're not

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with you yet. And yeah, that definitely like, yeah, it's

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definitely not where Carson would would would would would go

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to taking a stance, but it definitely he hammered. I

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mean he especially in New York. He was he had

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a lot of politicians on he had that. He had

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people like atheists like Marraton, like Merck, Madeline Murray O'Hare,

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the head of the NRA, the head of the Church

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of Satan, believe it or not, Jim Garrison from the

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JFK movie, who is a prosecutor who with the first

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real JFK kind of conspiracy. So they definitely did the

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politics the first ten years over there. But again you

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just had no idea where his politics lie. He did

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do something for Lyndon Johnson in his inaugural, which he

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did definitely wish he didn't looking back, but it was

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like non political. It was like so many stars were

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there and basically the attitude was like it's for the

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new president. You want to support them. But he he

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really tried to stay out of politics. If Sinatra corralled

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him in one of the Reagan inaugurals, because he was

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Frank Sinatra and he Johnny kind of owed him, which

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I talk about in the book. So he did. He

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entertained one of the Franks and Reagan inaugurals because Sinatra

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was producing, but he didn't want to do it.

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I have so many threads I could pull on, including

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the fifty percent stuff, but I want to save the

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Jay Leno conversation for later. Let's talk about your book. Sure,

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I'd like to hear you say the title, because I

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can't tell if it's like I got a love note

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from Johnny Love Johnny Carson. It's love Johnny Carson. So

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how do you pronounce the book?

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The book is called Love Johnny Carson. And the reason

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it's called Love Johnny Carson is because I talked to

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over four hundred people, and overwhelmingly they would tell me,

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either when we were recording or not recording, or an

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email form, that I love Johnny Carson. They would say, yeah,

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I love Johnny Carson. And I was like, the I

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didn't expect that to happen. Just I basically, you know,

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I'd read some of the books, and I had heard

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with people like Joan Rivers and just a few people,

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like two or three people that were the loudest megaphones

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over the years that would repeat stuff about him. And

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there's only a handful of people if that that really

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had bad stuff to say. But definitely seemed like that

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those were the loudest voices. So I was very I

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don't know, it was conflicted going into the podcast because

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I just didn't want to put negative stuff out there.

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I just didn't want I wanted to tell the truth,

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whatever the truth was, but I thought it would maybe

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be seven episops because it would go to negative. And

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I was shocked when I talked to his friends and

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I talked to people that worked there, and it was like,

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he's unrecognizable. I really believe in this book talking to

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the four hundred people, I mean, this is the conclusion

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I made. And I think if people listen to the

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Carson podcast that overwhelmingly the people loved him and the

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stuff that how he acted with his friends. Universally, they

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would say he was the same Johnny on the show

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as he was with them, but they had to feel Curson,

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I had to feel comfortable with the person, but they

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would say he was nearly the same Johnny. His second

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wife said the same thing. Yeah, he was a bad drinker.

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He would acknowledge it on the show, not only with

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Mike Wallace in sixteen Minutes in nineteen seventy nine, he

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would talk about the drinking he struggled with the drinking.

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He became a different person, which I go into. He

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would admit he had huge flaws from perfect extremely sensitive

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individual and that goes with my book with him banning

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some guests that I go into. He was just for

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somebody that was in the public eye and that famous

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it really are. He would get his feelings hurt all

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the time. He was one of those people that would

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say the critics. He never believed when guests would come

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on and be like, the critics don't hurt me, have

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a that thick skin, and it's like not always hurt.

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He would read all the press. He read all those books,

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negative books about him. He just he would read the

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press on him, but it would hurt, and he would

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talk about that. I mean, yes, sensitive guy.

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I listened to the Carson podcasts. Uh, you know, I

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guess you could have gone out of your way to

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books if we dig deep enough. Somebody hates me, hates you,

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hate Johnny Carson. You could have gotten on somebody. But

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it's what you said that everybody really liked him personally.

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I did try to get Joan Rivers. I tried to

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get Waye Newton, I tried to get only a handful

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of people that I knew. But if if I knew

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Elaine Boosler, a people that had problems, none of them

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would talk to me. Please continue to hearing.

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I was going to name drop Joan Rivers. I worked

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with Joan in you know, two thousand and two thousand

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and two, that range when she had a radio show

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with w OAR, and she you could tell the whole

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breakup bothered her, but she didn't have a bad word

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to say about Johnny Carson off the air, behind the scenes.

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You know, obviously things went sideways there and it bothered her,

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but she had nothing but reverence for Johnny Carson.

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I think when she got a mic in front of

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her and a camerash, the venom would spew. But like

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I think, like I think, when she was with talking

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to people, it was a lot of it was just

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like he was the best straight man. He knew how

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to set me up and made my career. I do

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go very in deep in depth with that story. I

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met Joan a few times and she's like twice and

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she's just very nice and like I'm her pressed to find.

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I mean, the people I know ultimately loved her so much.

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People that worked with her, the people that knew were

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and I write about this and I defend her that

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the people that worked on the Tonight Show. There's a

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lot of people I talked to that loved when she

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was over there guest hosting, and I wanted to make

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note of that. But we I do go in very

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specific about the versions of the people that were at

234
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the Tonight show and what happened on there and and

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what some of miss Rivers friends and people that knew

236
00:11:36.120 --> 00:11:38.399
her thought. And it's like it's such a night and

237
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day story with Joan Rivers was there and always like

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I just couldn't believe, like somebody really smart, Like I'm

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00:11:45.639 --> 00:11:48.360
not gonna mention names, but there's like one comedian that

240
00:11:48.440 --> 00:11:51.399
recently was talking about the Joan Rivers thing and just

241
00:11:51.440 --> 00:11:53.399
like how they both believed to this day, it was

242
00:11:53.440 --> 00:11:56.960
so simplistic that Johnny just you know, Joan didn't tell him,

243
00:11:57.159 --> 00:11:59.559
so he never talked to her again. The end of story.

244
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Didn't have to air his dirty laundry and the specifics publicly.

245
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He didn't owe anybody that and he didn't. I mean,

246
00:12:07.840 --> 00:12:11.399
somebody asked him one time during because after this monologue,

247
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a lot of times he would take questions from the audience.

248
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Somebody like asked him, what are your thoughts in Joan

249
00:12:16.039 --> 00:12:17.519
go in to Fox and he's like, I wish her

250
00:12:17.559 --> 00:12:20.440
the best. I mean after he never mentioned her on

251
00:12:20.559 --> 00:12:23.600
air after the show got canceled, he never mentioned her

252
00:12:23.600 --> 00:12:26.399
publicly that I'm aware of. I mean, he was a

253
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couple two journalists. I would have handled it differently, or

254
00:12:28.799 --> 00:12:31.399
I don't think she handled it well. But like, yeah,

255
00:12:31.440 --> 00:12:33.399
he wasn't going to get into like a back and

256
00:12:33.440 --> 00:12:36.600
forth thing about it. But I go into a lot

257
00:12:36.639 --> 00:12:39.279
of depth, and there's a lot of revelations about what

258
00:12:39.480 --> 00:12:42.320
according to the Carson staffers and according to some of

259
00:12:42.360 --> 00:12:46.120
miss Rivers friends, what happened was.

260
00:12:46.039 --> 00:12:49.080
The book blessed at all? Did you talk to the estate?

261
00:12:49.519 --> 00:12:52.480
The nephew, Jeff Satzings is the controller of the estate.

262
00:12:52.519 --> 00:12:55.159
I still believe you know, did you guess the ring

263
00:12:55.240 --> 00:12:56.840
or you draw on your own? It doesn't matter if

264
00:12:56.840 --> 00:12:59.960
that's a stupid question, John, it's a good question.

265
00:13:00.519 --> 00:13:03.720
Jeff knows about it. I told Jeff he hasn't read

266
00:13:03.759 --> 00:13:06.480
it yet to my knowledge, but I really hope he

267
00:13:06.639 --> 00:13:08.600
likes it. Like I had. Somebody who was on my

268
00:13:08.639 --> 00:13:12.399
podcast been like, is it like, is it a pro

269
00:13:12.559 --> 00:13:14.919
Johnny or is it anti Johnny book? And I'm like,

270
00:13:15.039 --> 00:13:16.960
I wrote that. I just and I told them, I'm like,

271
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I wrote the truth. And he's like, oh oh, And

272
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I'm like the truth is because I feel like I

273
00:13:22.039 --> 00:13:24.600
just I owed it to the listeners. Like some people

274
00:13:24.639 --> 00:13:26.840
were urging me. You might not want to make him

275
00:13:26.879 --> 00:13:29.519
look bad. It might take away empathy from the audience

276
00:13:29.639 --> 00:13:32.360
in your book. And I'm just like, I just wanted

277
00:13:32.360 --> 00:13:35.039
to write the truth. But my conclusion, and I think

278
00:13:35.080 --> 00:13:39.320
people that read the book ultimately is overwhelmingly positive. I

279
00:13:39.360 --> 00:13:42.360
mean that is the people that I talked to. I mean,

280
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I yeah, he there was definitely when he drank there

281
00:13:46.519 --> 00:13:48.919
he was not it was he called himself. It was

282
00:13:48.919 --> 00:13:51.799
like he said it was he be fine and that

283
00:13:51.840 --> 00:13:55.720
one more drink. He compared himself to Attiladahn and I

284
00:13:55.799 --> 00:14:00.440
go into the drink game stuff. But overwhelmingly, I mean,

285
00:14:00.440 --> 00:14:02.879
it was stories like that. I couldn't include all of them.

286
00:14:02.919 --> 00:14:05.519
I wish I could add to a director's cut of

287
00:14:05.519 --> 00:14:08.200
the book. But how much amazing stuff he did for

288
00:14:08.200 --> 00:14:10.440
people behind the scenes, and he didn't want any poop listed.

289
00:14:10.480 --> 00:14:12.399
I mean, everyone knows about the foundation which at the

290
00:14:12.399 --> 00:14:14.639
time was the largest foundation. It was like one hundred

291
00:14:15.200 --> 00:14:16.960
was it one hundred and eighty one hundred and ninety

292
00:14:17.000 --> 00:14:20.080
million that he left. That's still the foundation gives away

293
00:14:20.080 --> 00:14:23.679
millions of dollars every year to all these different groups

294
00:14:23.720 --> 00:14:27.759
and charities and nonprofits. But he was doing the same stuff,

295
00:14:27.840 --> 00:14:30.399
just a peepool, and it was just it was just

296
00:14:30.559 --> 00:14:34.679
not the Johnny Carson that I expected at all, and

297
00:14:34.720 --> 00:14:36.960
I was shocked, and I felt like there should be

298
00:14:37.039 --> 00:14:40.799
a book out there that answers like I feel like

299
00:14:40.840 --> 00:14:44.120
there's a people that made certain claims, and I felt

300
00:14:44.120 --> 00:14:46.600
like I wanted to put the truth, like Wayne Newton,

301
00:14:46.679 --> 00:14:51.399
for example, about what I believe happened, doing a little

302
00:14:51.399 --> 00:14:53.960
bit more research than him waiting for Johnny to pass

303
00:14:54.000 --> 00:14:57.480
away until he could make a claim because he I mean,

304
00:14:57.519 --> 00:14:59.639
it's easy to wait until somebody dies to make such

305
00:14:59.639 --> 00:15:02.480
a claim that he did on Larry King in two

306
00:15:02.519 --> 00:15:04.879
thousand and six, two thousand and seven or whatever it was.

307
00:15:05.240 --> 00:15:06.639
And I was like, I know what, I feel like,

308
00:15:06.639 --> 00:15:09.960
I just need to like set the record straight according

309
00:15:10.000 --> 00:15:13.720
to what the research I have done, and I did

310
00:15:13.759 --> 00:15:15.600
a little bit of that here and there. I really

311
00:15:15.679 --> 00:15:18.039
wish you would have participated, but what can you do?

312
00:15:18.720 --> 00:15:21.120
Uh before we even get to the Carson podcast, let's

313
00:15:21.159 --> 00:15:24.200
back up before that to the eye test. You see

314
00:15:24.240 --> 00:15:27.960
him within vaguely my age range. So for me, I

315
00:15:28.039 --> 00:15:31.840
watched Johnny Carson at first because it was the thing

316
00:15:31.879 --> 00:15:34.039
on that I killed time waiting for Dave to show

317
00:15:34.080 --> 00:15:37.320
up at twelve thirty and came to approchiate. So what

318
00:15:37.440 --> 00:15:40.320
is your Johnny Carson. You don't seem like you were

319
00:15:40.360 --> 00:15:43.519
watching episodes in nineteen seventy one, so what So what's

320
00:15:43.559 --> 00:15:45.799
your journey do you? Why do you? Why are you

321
00:15:45.840 --> 00:15:46.679
like the Carson guy?

322
00:15:47.279 --> 00:15:49.639
I think when I was like really little, like four

323
00:15:49.720 --> 00:15:51.720
or five, I you know, my dad was showing me

324
00:15:51.840 --> 00:15:55.399
stuff like it's a mad, mad mad mad world, Murdered

325
00:15:55.399 --> 00:15:57.720
by Death. So like I knew who like all these

326
00:15:57.840 --> 00:16:01.279
people were, Like, I mean, I knew who Jonathan Winners,

327
00:16:01.320 --> 00:16:06.639
Peter Funck, Eileen Brennan, so many, like Peter Seller's movies.

328
00:16:06.720 --> 00:16:08.440
I was watching The Pink panother there, and he's in

329
00:16:08.559 --> 00:16:10.960
Murder by Death, which is like the greatest movie. But

330
00:16:11.000 --> 00:16:13.600
it's like, Okay, Truman Capodi, I know who he is now.

331
00:16:13.600 --> 00:16:15.799
And I was like such a sponge in terms of

332
00:16:15.840 --> 00:16:18.240
like early entertainment. My dad would just tell me he

333
00:16:18.320 --> 00:16:20.639
got to go to Carson's show in sixty eight and

334
00:16:20.679 --> 00:16:22.639
would tell me who was on this show, and he

335
00:16:22.759 --> 00:16:26.039
showed me. You know. Sometimes they would do these primetime specials,

336
00:16:26.279 --> 00:16:28.879
the anniversary shows, which were the those were the things

337
00:16:28.879 --> 00:16:30.799
that really I would fell in love with the show,

338
00:16:30.840 --> 00:16:33.840
I feel like, but sometimes Friday as I could stay

339
00:16:33.879 --> 00:16:36.440
up and watch clips or the watch a little bit

340
00:16:36.480 --> 00:16:38.879
of the show. But the thing with Carson is he

341
00:16:39.200 --> 00:16:42.879
you could show kids and the animals segments him talking

342
00:16:42.919 --> 00:16:46.080
to kids that this the sketches like are gonna go

343
00:16:46.159 --> 00:16:48.679
over a lot of the kids' heads, but like there's

344
00:16:48.799 --> 00:16:52.080
enough within the sketches where they can work on different levels,

345
00:16:52.200 --> 00:16:55.759
kind of like some comedy does. But he was just

346
00:16:55.799 --> 00:16:57.759
so likable, and it was a party, and I got

347
00:16:57.759 --> 00:17:01.399
to you know, sometimes like danger Field, I didn't really

348
00:17:01.480 --> 00:17:03.720
I probably shouldn't have been watching his sets when I

349
00:17:03.759 --> 00:17:05.880
was a kid, but like I didn't get some of it,

350
00:17:05.920 --> 00:17:07.799
but he was just so funny and I did get

351
00:17:07.839 --> 00:17:09.920
some of it. But it was just like this adult

352
00:17:09.960 --> 00:17:12.799
party with all these people and show business, and I

353
00:17:12.920 --> 00:17:15.960
just loved the comedians especially and when the animals were

354
00:17:16.039 --> 00:17:19.319
Jim Fowler or Joan Embery, but those anniversary shows were

355
00:17:19.400 --> 00:17:21.839
like the best. I mean, those were those the clip

356
00:17:21.880 --> 00:17:23.640
shows I think were the thing that really did it

357
00:17:23.720 --> 00:17:26.160
for me. But I was just obsessed with entertainment in general,

358
00:17:26.200 --> 00:17:28.000
and I was just trying to, you know, like a

359
00:17:28.039 --> 00:17:30.920
sponge with comedy, just anybody, just watch as much as

360
00:17:30.960 --> 00:17:33.079
I could. But he was so likable. I think that's

361
00:17:33.119 --> 00:17:37.799
why he succeeded thirty years without any real serious competition.

362
00:17:39.400 --> 00:17:42.200
Was the liability thing, and he was completely himself on

363
00:17:42.359 --> 00:17:44.240
air that I asked Larry King and I talked to

364
00:17:44.279 --> 00:17:45.640
other people, I'm like, why do you think he was

365
00:17:45.640 --> 00:17:48.119
so successful on this? Like it's obvious, it was so clear.

366
00:17:48.160 --> 00:17:52.160
It's he was himself. I mean he definitely like was

367
00:17:52.440 --> 00:17:54.680
a shy person, but he you know, he's with he

368
00:17:54.759 --> 00:17:57.720
was in control and comfortable. He could be that person,

369
00:17:57.759 --> 00:17:59.279
but that was definitely part of him. But he was

370
00:17:59.279 --> 00:18:01.839
definitely a like all of us, a complicated person.

371
00:18:02.599 --> 00:18:05.039
So is it more than just even in New York

372
00:18:05.039 --> 00:18:07.000
City there were seven channels and what else you're going

373
00:18:07.039 --> 00:18:09.119
to watch at eleven thirty? Because you know, Dick Cavitt

374
00:18:09.200 --> 00:18:11.720
is likable, but maybe doing a more low to term

375
00:18:11.759 --> 00:18:13.920
he or smarter show. But then again, his guest is

376
00:18:14.000 --> 00:18:16.319
John Lennon. That seems pretty cool. I might watch that,

377
00:18:16.759 --> 00:18:19.440
So is there more to Johnny just then? Yeah, he

378
00:18:19.480 --> 00:18:21.759
had eleven thirty back at a time when what else

379
00:18:21.759 --> 00:18:22.200
you're watching?

380
00:18:22.839 --> 00:18:27.559
At one point there were him, David Frost, merv Griffin,

381
00:18:28.319 --> 00:18:31.799
and Cavot. Yeah, it was four of them going ahead

382
00:18:31.839 --> 00:18:35.200
to head. So I mean there definitely were last options.

383
00:18:35.200 --> 00:18:37.480
But I guess I definitely think at the end of

384
00:18:37.519 --> 00:18:41.200
the day, I think these shows are always about likability.

385
00:18:41.279 --> 00:18:43.880
I think he knew his audience, and you know, he

386
00:18:43.920 --> 00:18:46.240
would read the letters that would come in. He would

387
00:18:46.279 --> 00:18:49.000
personally respond to people. Sometimes when they were upset with

388
00:18:49.039 --> 00:18:51.640
a joke, he would either call them or write them

389
00:18:51.680 --> 00:18:56.680
a letter. He definitely was would study tapes like like

390
00:18:56.720 --> 00:19:00.880
an athlete, like a coach, watching clips of his team play,

391
00:19:00.960 --> 00:19:04.720
and he was just he would say, and at least

392
00:19:04.759 --> 00:19:06.799
in the New York years, I find myself that's all

393
00:19:06.839 --> 00:19:09.119
I think about is the show. And I mean I

394
00:19:09.119 --> 00:19:11.799
think he would probably realize that's not the most healthy thing.

395
00:19:11.839 --> 00:19:15.200
On the occasions him calling up on off weeks, calling

396
00:19:15.200 --> 00:19:17.720
Fred de Cordova up with ideas for the show. When

397
00:19:17.720 --> 00:19:19.880
he comes back. You know. He would always say he

398
00:19:19.920 --> 00:19:23.440
didn't really watch the show that much. Sometimes if he would,

399
00:19:23.720 --> 00:19:26.000
he watched it most of the nights. It seemed like

400
00:19:26.039 --> 00:19:28.119
he would stan up and watch his show, and he

401
00:19:28.160 --> 00:19:30.400
would You could tell he watched the guest house too,

402
00:19:30.440 --> 00:19:33.720
because he would comment on them sometimes and there would

403
00:19:33.720 --> 00:19:35.559
be a comedian that had never been on an his

404
00:19:35.599 --> 00:19:37.240
show that did the guest host in and he'd be like,

405
00:19:37.279 --> 00:19:39.039
you know what they did very well, let's get them

406
00:19:39.039 --> 00:19:42.359
on with me. But yet he has I don't know

407
00:19:42.400 --> 00:19:46.200
if you can last thirty years like that in terms

408
00:19:46.240 --> 00:19:49.200
of like the pressure cooker that is going on that show.

409
00:19:49.359 --> 00:19:51.559
I mean, Dick Havitt said something in the that I

410
00:19:51.680 --> 00:19:53.720
mentioned in the book in a Time magazine interviewers like

411
00:19:53.759 --> 00:19:55.880
go into two hundred cocktail parties in a row and

412
00:19:56.079 --> 00:19:57.559
having to be the life at the party and the

413
00:19:57.599 --> 00:20:00.839
amount of energy. I mean, the guy doing an hour

414
00:20:01.240 --> 00:20:04.559
and forty five minutes in New York the first couple

415
00:20:04.519 --> 00:20:07.319
of years, I mean, it was unbelievable. Now they do

416
00:20:07.480 --> 00:20:10.920
an hour. They do maybe one hundred and eighty shows

417
00:20:10.920 --> 00:20:13.759
at the most were Carson of Television a year where

418
00:20:13.759 --> 00:20:15.759
Carson was doing this first couple of years, like over

419
00:20:15.799 --> 00:20:18.440
four hundred hours the first couple of years, and then

420
00:20:18.480 --> 00:20:20.480
it went then in nineteen minutes, but it was still

421
00:20:20.759 --> 00:20:24.039
in exhausting. I mean, Shan Lane was did an interview

422
00:20:24.119 --> 00:20:26.279
Shannon and I think twenty and twelve, and like, no

423
00:20:26.319 --> 00:20:29.279
one knows how exhausting it is. One of these competitors,

424
00:20:29.279 --> 00:20:32.279
Carson's competitors, that it's more grueling than shoveling snow for

425
00:20:32.359 --> 00:20:35.400
eight hours just going out there. People, I don't think

426
00:20:35.480 --> 00:20:38.480
realize how for the most part, unless you're a cyborg

427
00:20:38.559 --> 00:20:41.920
robot like Jay Leno, for the most part, how exhausting

428
00:20:41.960 --> 00:20:43.640
and not consuming those shows are.

429
00:20:44.000 --> 00:20:47.200
I teach on Monday nights and my wife is no

430
00:20:47.680 --> 00:20:50.240
knows this, you know, I lecture for two hours and

431
00:20:50.359 --> 00:20:54.480
change and just the act of standing and talking. Yeah

432
00:20:54.519 --> 00:20:56.839
it's not construction workout in the sun, but just even

433
00:20:57.119 --> 00:21:00.880
that is exhausting. Never mind, if you're hosting the Tonight

434
00:21:00.920 --> 00:21:02.519
Show or one of these shows you've got to be

435
00:21:02.599 --> 00:21:05.039
on on you really can't have a bad night. Plus

436
00:21:05.119 --> 00:21:07.839
the prep. Uh, you know, you can't just show up

437
00:21:07.880 --> 00:21:09.119
and be like, all right, who who am I talking to?

438
00:21:09.119 --> 00:21:10.880
Burt Reynolds, Right, I'll wing it. You know, that's not

439
00:21:11.519 --> 00:21:15.359
the gig. It's not just oh, you work an hour day,

440
00:21:15.400 --> 00:21:16.119
it must be nice.

441
00:21:17.079 --> 00:21:19.960
Yeah, there's a misconception about because Letterman would be at

442
00:21:20.039 --> 00:21:22.640
his studio all day like most of the people, and

443
00:21:22.720 --> 00:21:25.680
Johnny didn't get there until maybe two hours before if

444
00:21:25.720 --> 00:21:27.720
there were rehearsing a sketch, maybe a little earlier. But

445
00:21:27.920 --> 00:21:29.880
from the time he woke up he did take a

446
00:21:29.920 --> 00:21:32.680
tennis break. It was about the show, and he was

447
00:21:32.759 --> 00:21:35.000
so hands on from the time. The reason he wasn't

448
00:21:35.039 --> 00:21:37.880
there all day at the studio is because rightfully so,

449
00:21:38.000 --> 00:21:40.359
he protected his energy and he knew if he was

450
00:21:40.440 --> 00:21:43.559
there too much it would just like affect his energy.

451
00:21:43.720 --> 00:21:46.599
He wouldn't have lunches with people, he wouldn't interact with

452
00:21:46.680 --> 00:21:50.039
people that he just he believed that he just had

453
00:21:50.079 --> 00:21:53.799
to guard and that energy. And people said this was

454
00:21:54.119 --> 00:21:56.559
a thing that several people on the show told me

455
00:21:56.599 --> 00:21:58.640
that when it was a show day and he showed

456
00:21:58.720 --> 00:22:00.559
up to the studio and if you were around him,

457
00:22:01.000 --> 00:22:05.079
sparks flying these those were his worth, sparks flying off

458
00:22:05.079 --> 00:22:07.160
of him. They would tell me you could feel his energy.

459
00:22:07.480 --> 00:22:09.160
And the two people that worked on the show told

460
00:22:09.200 --> 00:22:10.720
me when they were guests on the show, one of

461
00:22:10.759 --> 00:22:13.319
them wrote a book and one of them played did

462
00:22:13.319 --> 00:22:15.799
some music during the show. When they shook his hand

463
00:22:15.880 --> 00:22:17.920
once that it felt like a nuclear reactor, and the

464
00:22:17.920 --> 00:22:20.119
other said that you could feel the sparks, I mean

465
00:22:20.160 --> 00:22:22.680
the energy that he would exude when he was hosting

466
00:22:22.680 --> 00:22:25.240
the show. He did this famous thing where they took

467
00:22:25.279 --> 00:22:28.039
his heart rate I think some doctor or his pulse

468
00:22:28.160 --> 00:22:30.839
or something during when he was hosting the show versus

469
00:22:30.880 --> 00:22:34.200
before the show or just like regular and it was

470
00:22:34.319 --> 00:22:37.160
like his heart rate was just so much higher when

471
00:22:37.160 --> 00:22:40.559
he was doing the show. It's just it was I mean, yeah,

472
00:22:40.599 --> 00:22:43.119
from somebody that performs and somebody that's teaching, you know

473
00:22:44.400 --> 00:22:46.759
what that was like. But he just he was exhausted,

474
00:22:47.119 --> 00:22:50.079
and a lot of people gave him like he'd make

475
00:22:50.119 --> 00:22:52.000
fun of it, but people would give him a hard

476
00:22:52.000 --> 00:22:55.200
time for only doing the show three times a week

477
00:22:55.640 --> 00:22:57.400
the last couple of years. But the truth of the

478
00:22:57.440 --> 00:23:00.640
matter is it wasn't laziness. He just did not have

479
00:23:00.920 --> 00:23:03.640
the energy interesting anymore. And he would not let the

480
00:23:03.759 --> 00:23:06.039
energy he didn't with the quality beat the show to slap.

481
00:23:06.240 --> 00:23:08.640
I mean he didn't. He could have shown up those

482
00:23:08.720 --> 00:23:11.839
five nights a week, but he knew the energy just

483
00:23:11.920 --> 00:23:13.680
he just did not have that with him in it

484
00:23:13.720 --> 00:23:14.720
and he could feel it, and.

485
00:23:14.680 --> 00:23:16.279
It's a viewer. I don't think the three nights a

486
00:23:16.279 --> 00:23:18.880
week thing with the live shows on Monday and the

487
00:23:18.880 --> 00:23:20.880
one reun rerun was Tuesday, right, and then a Wednesday,

488
00:23:20.880 --> 00:23:22.200
Thursday Friday live if I'm.

489
00:23:22.039 --> 00:23:25.160
Remember something like that. It was like like somebody like

490
00:23:25.240 --> 00:23:27.359
Leno the permanent guest host or then you know Joan

491
00:23:27.480 --> 00:23:29.880
Rivers is the permanent guest was like it gave him

492
00:23:29.880 --> 00:23:32.640
a break, It gave Leno and Rivers a chance to

493
00:23:32.720 --> 00:23:35.480
shine and get up there with Las Vegas touring money.

494
00:23:35.599 --> 00:23:38.279
I mean yeah, I mean it was just it was

495
00:23:38.319 --> 00:23:40.359
a win win for I think everyone in like, there

496
00:23:40.400 --> 00:23:43.880
was definitely expectations when Johnny did host. It was such

497
00:23:43.880 --> 00:23:47.000
a big deal for any for people. And I mean,

498
00:23:47.039 --> 00:23:49.200
but people make fun of him about it and he

499
00:23:49.720 --> 00:23:53.039
acknowledged it. But I mean, yeah, I just I just

500
00:23:53.160 --> 00:23:56.079
he knew. I think he knew what his limitations were,

501
00:23:56.680 --> 00:23:59.960
and he is he was getting older. He just again,

502
00:24:00.039 --> 00:24:02.279
and I mean I think I'm not without naming names.

503
00:24:02.279 --> 00:24:05.480
I think some shows sometimes stale around a little too

504
00:24:05.519 --> 00:24:08.559
long and the quality diminishes, and he just didn't want

505
00:24:08.559 --> 00:24:10.559
to be Bob Hope. He didn't want to be Benny.

506
00:24:10.599 --> 00:24:13.079
He didn't want to be luci Oball who he all

507
00:24:13.119 --> 00:24:17.039
believed stayed around too long, came back when they shouldn't know.

508
00:24:17.440 --> 00:24:20.519
And he just wanted the work to speak for itself,

509
00:24:20.559 --> 00:24:24.640
and he just didn't want the quality to dip. And

510
00:24:24.880 --> 00:24:27.640
I really feel as the time it was right. I mean,

511
00:24:27.680 --> 00:24:29.720
he was getting made fun of its Saturday Night Live

512
00:24:29.759 --> 00:24:31.880
and he hated that, and he just didn't want to

513
00:24:31.920 --> 00:24:35.400
be perceived like he perceived some of the other entertainers

514
00:24:35.440 --> 00:24:40.160
that he loved Hope, he personally loved Benny and Lucille Ball.

515
00:24:40.200 --> 00:24:42.559
He just didn't want to He didn't want to be

516
00:24:43.319 --> 00:24:45.319
remembered like that. So that's what he got out when

517
00:24:45.319 --> 00:24:45.559
he did.

518
00:24:45.640 --> 00:24:47.680
I think he was smart in terms of legacy. I'm

519
00:24:47.720 --> 00:24:50.559
a big Hope fan because I'm familiar with the entire

520
00:24:50.720 --> 00:24:54.039
body of his work, and so many people Bob just

521
00:24:54.039 --> 00:24:56.480
gets dragged for the work he did at eighty and

522
00:24:56.559 --> 00:24:59.440
ninety years old. People will remember that. Bob Hope we've

523
00:24:59.480 --> 00:25:02.799
talked on the past, asked about why Corson didn't really

524
00:25:02.960 --> 00:25:04.640
enjoy Bob as a guest, because Bob would just come

525
00:25:04.640 --> 00:25:06.640
in and do his thing and not have a conversation.

526
00:25:06.759 --> 00:25:09.400
But I think there's something for off the stagehead.

527
00:25:09.319 --> 00:25:11.839
Only near the end. Like I think he was fine

528
00:25:11.960 --> 00:25:13.880
up until like the early eighties with Hope. It's when

529
00:25:13.920 --> 00:25:18.480
Hope had trouble hearing and Hope could couldn't really unless

530
00:25:18.559 --> 00:25:21.480
Johnny was reading off the cards with the questions in order.

531
00:25:21.720 --> 00:25:26.160
Hope was having a tough time even even having a conversation.

532
00:25:26.480 --> 00:25:29.599
I think that that's when it got in that. I mean,

533
00:25:29.680 --> 00:25:33.240
it was just tough because Carson would be like like, well, Bob,

534
00:25:33.279 --> 00:25:35.559
like why are you doing this on Christmas? Going to Hawaii?

535
00:25:35.640 --> 00:25:37.440
And he'd be like, they really lay the money on you,

536
00:25:37.480 --> 00:25:40.759
and it's like you you don't need the money, like

537
00:25:40.799 --> 00:25:43.079
what Like he Carson would be like, Bob, Hope has

538
00:25:43.119 --> 00:25:47.400
no friends, like no friends or interests, no no real

539
00:25:47.440 --> 00:25:49.880
friends and no interest outside show business. And Carson had

540
00:25:49.920 --> 00:25:51.880
so many it was a curious guy and interest and

541
00:25:51.960 --> 00:25:54.799
just he just he just didn't really understand where Hope

542
00:25:54.839 --> 00:25:56.720
was coming from. But in terms of him personally, he

543
00:25:56.920 --> 00:25:59.319
liked Bob as a person and he respected his early

544
00:25:59.359 --> 00:26:03.000
career huge Hope. Then there was never any personal dislike

545
00:26:03.160 --> 00:26:06.720
like there's so many either like hack journalists or like

546
00:26:06.839 --> 00:26:11.440
YouTube AI videos like Carson hated. There was no hatred there.

547
00:26:11.599 --> 00:26:14.000
It was just near the end. He just it was

548
00:26:14.079 --> 00:26:16.079
he didn't really like having him on, but he had

549
00:26:16.119 --> 00:26:18.359
him on out of reverence because he was Bob Hope.

550
00:26:18.759 --> 00:26:21.160
But he there was never it wasn't a personal thing

551
00:26:21.319 --> 00:26:23.559
and it was just near the end. But I Hope.

552
00:26:24.079 --> 00:26:26.759
Carson wrote a handwritten letter to Hope and it was

553
00:26:26.839 --> 00:26:28.799
really I think it was a ninety eight just with

554
00:26:29.480 --> 00:26:31.519
how much he meant to him. And you know, Johnny

555
00:26:31.960 --> 00:26:33.960
retired from the Tonight Show and left the Tonight Show

556
00:26:34.000 --> 00:26:36.079
and was so careful about what he did. But when

557
00:26:36.119 --> 00:26:38.039
Hope said, will you do my ninety at that NBC?

558
00:26:38.200 --> 00:26:40.480
Johnny said, yeah, of course. I mean he made a

559
00:26:40.559 --> 00:26:42.440
rule that he wasn't going to come back and do anything,

560
00:26:42.440 --> 00:26:44.599
but he's like for Bob Hope, I'm gonna be there.

561
00:26:44.680 --> 00:26:47.079
I mean, so for people that asked me all the time,

562
00:26:47.160 --> 00:26:49.519
is it true that Johnny hated him, I'm like, not

563
00:26:49.599 --> 00:26:52.839
even close. That's not that's not even yeah.

564
00:26:52.759 --> 00:26:56.720
Well said, appreciate you clearing that up. So did did

565
00:26:56.759 --> 00:26:59.519
Johnny live for the show or was it just something

566
00:26:59.559 --> 00:27:02.359
he was good? And uh, you know he didn't need

567
00:27:02.400 --> 00:27:02.799
to do it.

568
00:27:03.319 --> 00:27:05.759
He lived for the show, and he told somebody privately

569
00:27:05.839 --> 00:27:08.200
near the end of his life it was the only

570
00:27:08.240 --> 00:27:11.039
time he felt alive and felt happy and you know,

571
00:27:11.359 --> 00:27:14.160
really really alive and happy, and it was just something

572
00:27:14.599 --> 00:27:16.720
he just would he talked a little bit publicly. It

573
00:27:16.880 --> 00:27:19.920
just and went interviewed just about the adrenaline and just

574
00:27:19.960 --> 00:27:22.079
like to be in front of those that many people

575
00:27:22.079 --> 00:27:24.920
when it goes well. I think Dave Letterman's probably in

576
00:27:24.920 --> 00:27:29.240
that category. Two. I mean that it was just even

577
00:27:29.279 --> 00:27:32.599
when sometimes it didn't go great, it just Dave would

578
00:27:32.599 --> 00:27:34.279
always say it was the best hour of his day

579
00:27:34.319 --> 00:27:37.400
by far. And I feel like Johnny probably was like

580
00:27:37.480 --> 00:27:40.680
that too, but it became his identity just I mean,

581
00:27:40.759 --> 00:27:43.559
he there were there were definitely he had interest, but

582
00:27:43.599 --> 00:27:46.279
there were he didn't try. There were he was definitely

583
00:27:46.400 --> 00:27:49.160
very careful. Could like, for example, like he tried golf

584
00:27:49.160 --> 00:27:51.240
in a few times and he found he was terrible

585
00:27:51.279 --> 00:27:53.480
at it, and he's like, He's like, I don't want

586
00:27:53.480 --> 00:27:55.599
to do this because I don't want to do anything

587
00:27:56.119 --> 00:27:57.920
that I'm not good at because I'm so good at

588
00:27:57.920 --> 00:28:00.640
the Tonight show. I'll only like do things if he

589
00:28:00.680 --> 00:28:03.440
can be good at them, and there there weren't a

590
00:28:03.480 --> 00:28:05.680
lot of things like he con tennis. He was manageable

591
00:28:05.759 --> 00:28:08.000
and stuff like he could be okay, but like if

592
00:28:08.000 --> 00:28:10.359
he if he couldn't be at least like decent or good,

593
00:28:10.400 --> 00:28:13.119
he wouldn't want to keep doing it. He just was

594
00:28:13.160 --> 00:28:15.759
like his standards were really high, which is the Tonight Show.

595
00:28:16.160 --> 00:28:18.480
So that's I think why he turned down a lot

596
00:28:18.519 --> 00:28:21.960
of movies and acting roles like lucre Is, stuff like

597
00:28:21.960 --> 00:28:25.359
Steve McQueen and well movie wasn't I read about it

598
00:28:25.400 --> 00:28:28.200
in the book, but he turned down like Lou Wasserman's offer.

599
00:28:28.240 --> 00:28:30.319
I think no, no, no, no no, it was one of

600
00:28:30.359 --> 00:28:33.240
the other guys had it might have been Wasserman, or

601
00:28:33.240 --> 00:28:35.640
it was one of those those moguls, Irving Lazar, actually

602
00:28:35.640 --> 00:28:38.240
Swifty Lazar a million dollar check for like ten days

603
00:28:38.359 --> 00:28:40.000
or back then. Now there's a lot of money's and

604
00:28:40.079 --> 00:28:42.200
now it's a lot. But I think a lot some

605
00:28:42.240 --> 00:28:44.640
of it was just like he just knew what he

606
00:28:44.680 --> 00:28:47.000
was good at and that and he didn't think anybody

607
00:28:47.039 --> 00:28:49.799
would accept him for being an act or a movie

608
00:28:49.839 --> 00:28:52.680
star doing he called sitcom like the Kiss of Death,

609
00:28:52.839 --> 00:28:55.559
especially back then, if you were on a sitcom you

610
00:28:55.680 --> 00:28:57.799
do a lot of times, it was the end of

611
00:28:57.839 --> 00:28:59.400
your thing that you were known as that, and it

612
00:28:59.440 --> 00:29:02.119
was over. After that, it was hard to kind of

613
00:29:02.119 --> 00:29:02.839
build a career.

614
00:29:03.039 --> 00:29:06.720
So Mark Malcoff's book is Love Johnny Carson More to come.

615
00:29:08.720 --> 00:29:10.759
Let's talk about the Carson Podcast.

616
00:29:11.359 --> 00:29:12.480
Yeah, let's do it.

617
00:29:13.000 --> 00:29:16.680
Why, Like, like you started that when there weren't a

618
00:29:16.720 --> 00:29:19.680
lot of podcasts before everybody you know, even I have

619
00:29:19.759 --> 00:29:21.720
a podcast now, but you were one of the podcasts

620
00:29:21.720 --> 00:29:24.119
I was listening to pretty early on. It was easier

621
00:29:24.160 --> 00:29:27.759
to discover such a thing. And I can't remember if

622
00:29:27.759 --> 00:29:30.160
you monetize it at all. You weren't like stuffing it

623
00:29:30.200 --> 00:29:33.480
with mid rolls or anything. So why the Carson Podcast.

624
00:29:33.720 --> 00:29:37.759
Everything I've done, anything that's certainly been successful, has been curiosity.

625
00:29:38.759 --> 00:29:41.599
Like it was bafling to me that the guy who

626
00:29:41.640 --> 00:29:43.799
held the curse curt and open for Johnny that no

627
00:29:43.839 --> 00:29:46.319
one had ever to my knowledge talked at him Like

628
00:29:46.599 --> 00:29:49.039
that's the way my mind thinks, Like who is this

629
00:29:49.119 --> 00:29:51.240
guy Jeff sat saying? When I sat down with him,

630
00:29:51.240 --> 00:29:53.680
I was like, Oh, it's this gentleman named Irving Davis,

631
00:29:53.720 --> 00:29:55.759
And I'm like, I want to talk to IRVINGI what

632
00:29:55.880 --> 00:29:57.920
was that like being backstage with the show and he

633
00:29:57.960 --> 00:30:00.119
would tell me he'd be with Johnny and like a

634
00:30:00.160 --> 00:30:02.359
lot of performers just need silence and they're in their

635
00:30:02.359 --> 00:30:04.759
own and they're like, no, Johnny would be smoking the cigarette,

636
00:30:04.799 --> 00:30:08.039
telling jokes and hanging out with me up until here's Johnny.

637
00:30:08.039 --> 00:30:10.440
He would just be like, you know, just and it

638
00:30:10.519 --> 00:30:12.599
was just interesting to kind of get that point of view.

639
00:30:12.640 --> 00:30:14.440
I just had so many questions what went on behind

640
00:30:14.440 --> 00:30:16.599
the scenes. My dad, even from the time I was

641
00:30:16.640 --> 00:30:19.240
still in elementary school, would be like, no, Mark. The

642
00:30:19.319 --> 00:30:21.400
reason that they're so funny together with the guests, a

643
00:30:21.400 --> 00:30:23.680
lot of it is because they determine what they're going

644
00:30:23.720 --> 00:30:25.400
to talk about before the show. And there's like look

645
00:30:25.400 --> 00:30:28.279
at the credits, these talent coordinators, and I was like,

646
00:30:28.319 --> 00:30:30.000
how do you get a job like that? Like what?

647
00:30:30.160 --> 00:30:32.079
I just wanted to know how all the magic tricks

648
00:30:32.079 --> 00:30:35.160
were done, Like it was this giant mystery, like how

649
00:30:35.200 --> 00:30:37.640
people got booked on this show. How they would get

650
00:30:37.640 --> 00:30:41.920
the like a farmer from from from someone like Frank

651
00:30:41.960 --> 00:30:44.559
Hall or someone from North Carolina who is the manure

652
00:30:44.640 --> 00:30:48.359
man they called him that made the quail dropping necklaces

653
00:30:48.400 --> 00:30:50.559
from and sell them, and it's like where do they

654
00:30:50.559 --> 00:30:53.079
find these people? And like the writers, like how did

655
00:30:53.240 --> 00:30:54.960
they get jobs that are what was it like writing?

656
00:30:55.160 --> 00:30:57.440
So it was just like I had endless questions and

657
00:30:57.720 --> 00:31:01.359
basically I got all my questions answered from asking people.

658
00:31:01.440 --> 00:31:03.240
And you had no idea that there were people like

659
00:31:03.599 --> 00:31:07.279
other people like you. Thank God, there were that wanted

660
00:31:07.279 --> 00:31:09.599
to follow me on this eight year journey doing almost

661
00:31:09.599 --> 00:31:12.680
four hundred episodes, and it was just pure curiosity. And

662
00:31:12.680 --> 00:31:15.480
I got to ask how all the magic tricks not

663
00:31:15.640 --> 00:31:18.720
magic tricks, but with what went on behind the scenes,

664
00:31:18.759 --> 00:31:21.640
And that's all I really wanted to know is how

665
00:31:21.720 --> 00:31:26.440
everything went down and what Johnny was like off camera,

666
00:31:26.480 --> 00:31:29.599
and just it just like opened up this whole different world.

667
00:31:29.640 --> 00:31:31.480
And then that's what the book, which comes out on

668
00:31:31.599 --> 00:31:35.799
October twenty first, two days before Johnny's one hundredth birthday,

669
00:31:35.799 --> 00:31:38.400
if you can believe it, was it this same thing.

670
00:31:38.559 --> 00:31:41.640
I'd say the book is thirty forty percent of the podcast,

671
00:31:41.720 --> 00:31:44.680
and it's about sixty percent new stuff that I got

672
00:31:44.680 --> 00:31:46.119
to talk to a lot of people like Jay Leno

673
00:31:46.160 --> 00:31:48.039
that wouldn't talk to me for my podcast as well,

674
00:31:48.079 --> 00:31:49.720
so I have a lot of new people. I was

675
00:31:49.759 --> 00:31:52.680
able to add, but it was just pure curiosity. That's it.

676
00:31:53.440 --> 00:31:57.000
I love. First of all, it's great because it's a

677
00:31:57.079 --> 00:31:59.839
nice way, a nice piece of the legacy. I imagine

678
00:32:00.119 --> 00:32:01.880
some of the guests are no longer with us, and

679
00:32:02.000 --> 00:32:04.720
so this way the stories aren't lost a time, much

680
00:32:04.720 --> 00:32:07.640
like Gilbert Godfreed's podcast, and we've even lost Gilbert, but

681
00:32:07.680 --> 00:32:09.880
you know, he got some stories out of people before

682
00:32:10.200 --> 00:32:15.200
they were lost. I also like that it's sometimes you'll

683
00:32:15.200 --> 00:32:18.400
watch a documentary and because of the nature of the business,

684
00:32:18.440 --> 00:32:20.559
you have to have famous people on it. So it's

685
00:32:20.599 --> 00:32:23.119
here's I don't know why I'm picking this person. I

686
00:32:23.119 --> 00:32:25.079
don't just I think I just read a story about him.

687
00:32:25.119 --> 00:32:28.319
But here's Rain Wilson's opinion on Johnny Carson. And like

688
00:32:28.359 --> 00:32:30.680
you said, I'd much rather hear from the guy who

689
00:32:30.759 --> 00:32:33.799
was hanging out backstage on the curtain or just super

690
00:32:33.839 --> 00:32:37.559
fans than tangential celebrities in some of these things. So

691
00:32:37.640 --> 00:32:39.680
I think it's a fantastic body of work that I'm

692
00:32:39.720 --> 00:32:40.400
glad exists.

693
00:32:40.799 --> 00:32:43.200
Oh thanks, Yeah. The emails that I would get and

694
00:32:43.200 --> 00:32:46.519
a messages from people overwhelmingly were the staff that people,

695
00:32:47.039 --> 00:32:50.200
the talent coordinators, people like Irving Davis, people like Peter

696
00:32:50.359 --> 00:32:54.400
Less Sally who is Johnny's producer, the writers, I was

697
00:32:54.480 --> 00:32:58.440
overwhelmingly Carson's assistants were the ones that I think people

698
00:32:58.519 --> 00:33:02.920
really They moved people emotionally, and they were the ones

699
00:33:02.920 --> 00:33:07.200
that just to hear those stories versus having the famous people,

700
00:33:07.200 --> 00:33:08.960
which is great. To the people that were guests on

701
00:33:09.000 --> 00:33:12.119
the show, those were great to hear. And again I

702
00:33:12.160 --> 00:33:14.640
can't believe the amount of people Top friend friends with

703
00:33:14.720 --> 00:33:18.200
Frank Santa Padre, who was Gilbert's co host, and the

704
00:33:18.240 --> 00:33:20.480
amount of people on both of our shows that are

705
00:33:20.480 --> 00:33:22.440
no longer with this. I think it's like forty or

706
00:33:22.519 --> 00:33:25.079
fifty people that I had on the show that are gone.

707
00:33:25.200 --> 00:33:28.480
And it's really set like so many younger people too,

708
00:33:28.519 --> 00:33:32.640
like Saggot Bob Saggot, Louis Anderson. Gilbert was on my podcast.

709
00:33:32.799 --> 00:33:34.960
I had to bring him a sandwich. There were conditions.

710
00:33:34.960 --> 00:33:37.279
When I went to his Chelsea apartment. He got on

711
00:33:37.319 --> 00:33:38.839
the phone with his wife's like, I think he'll do

712
00:33:38.880 --> 00:33:41.279
it if you get him a sandwich. And Gilbert got

713
00:33:41.279 --> 00:33:42.319
on the phone with me and I had to get

714
00:33:42.359 --> 00:33:45.319
him turkey sandwich with I think it was mayo and

715
00:33:45.880 --> 00:33:47.640
a drink. And then a cookie and it was like

716
00:33:47.720 --> 00:33:50.640
six dollars a sandwich. And then he's like, where's the mustard, Like, Gilbert,

717
00:33:50.680 --> 00:33:52.599
you didn't say mustard. And then there's this big back

718
00:33:52.640 --> 00:33:55.000
and forth. But he still did the podcast, and then

719
00:33:55.200 --> 00:33:57.519
I showed him. He could not believe I had a

720
00:33:57.559 --> 00:33:59.960
surprise for him. I said, Gilbert, did Johnny ever mention

721
00:34:00.240 --> 00:34:02.599
one air to your knowledge? He said no, and it

722
00:34:02.680 --> 00:34:04.559
was on the show he was never mentioned. I was like, Gilbert,

723
00:34:05.000 --> 00:34:06.720
this is your life. And then I played him a

724
00:34:06.759 --> 00:34:09.440
monologue ic that Johnny did about and when the Emmys

725
00:34:09.440 --> 00:34:11.960
when he got into some controversy with a routine, and

726
00:34:12.000 --> 00:34:14.760
he couldn't believe it. He's like, can we watch it again?

727
00:34:14.840 --> 00:34:16.639
I was like yeah, So we played it a bunch

728
00:34:16.679 --> 00:34:19.559
of times and he just was like so baffled, like

729
00:34:19.599 --> 00:34:22.280
a little kid that Carson mentioned him on that Tonight

730
00:34:22.320 --> 00:34:23.920
show by name. It was really fun.

731
00:34:24.280 --> 00:34:28.639
It's fascinating that Johnny Carson is still, at least for

732
00:34:28.719 --> 00:34:30.760
Late Night, the north star in the way that George

733
00:34:30.760 --> 00:34:33.159
Carlin is the north star for comedians, both gone now

734
00:34:33.199 --> 00:34:36.519
twenty years. I stumbled across that fact that it's been

735
00:34:36.559 --> 00:34:39.519
twenty years since Johnny's gone. That kind of I knew

736
00:34:39.559 --> 00:34:41.559
it and forgot it, and it's stunned me the other day.

737
00:34:41.679 --> 00:34:44.960
But he really is just a north Star.

738
00:34:45.760 --> 00:34:48.000
Yeah, this show has been off the air. I cannot

739
00:34:48.000 --> 00:34:51.199
believe this for over with it has been thirty two years.

740
00:34:51.280 --> 00:34:54.239
I mean, it's it doesn't feel like I remember when

741
00:34:54.280 --> 00:34:57.519
on May twenty second, nineteen ninety two, where I was

742
00:34:57.679 --> 00:35:01.440
watching that final show, and it's it's amazing to see

743
00:35:01.719 --> 00:35:03.920
to think about that. I do think the one that

744
00:35:04.000 --> 00:35:07.400
the geniuses about Carson is like, I feel like so

745
00:35:07.480 --> 00:35:11.599
many of the clips still play. It's interesting to me,

746
00:35:11.679 --> 00:35:13.599
Like I sometimes we'll get emails from people that are

747
00:35:13.599 --> 00:35:15.679
in college or people in their twenties that are discovering

748
00:35:15.760 --> 00:35:18.599
him on YouTube and just they think the clips, some

749
00:35:18.639 --> 00:35:21.960
of the clips are so funny, and just the fact

750
00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:24.599
that they still play, it's it's unbelievable to me. But

751
00:35:24.679 --> 00:35:28.960
just the fact that, I mean constantly I'm trying to

752
00:35:28.960 --> 00:35:31.039
go online to see who's talking about Carson, and I'm

753
00:35:31.079 --> 00:35:34.519
shocked about the mainstream press that he still gets like

754
00:35:34.599 --> 00:35:37.679
his son. Unfortunately, Chris passed away at seventy four, and

755
00:35:37.719 --> 00:35:42.360
then his third wife, Yeah, Joe Wane Uh passed away

756
00:35:42.400 --> 00:35:44.039
a couple of months ago, and just the amount of

757
00:35:44.119 --> 00:35:46.960
national news that he still makes, Like the Wall Street

758
00:35:47.039 --> 00:35:49.960
Journal just did a piece about his Malibu home. His

759
00:35:50.039 --> 00:35:52.719
last home is up for there's like one hundred and

760
00:35:52.760 --> 00:35:55.199
ten million or something somebody's trying to get for. But

761
00:35:55.360 --> 00:35:57.960
the fact that Carson, all these years later in the

762
00:35:58.039 --> 00:36:03.800
late night shows fallin Colbert and Kimmel, up until recently

763
00:36:04.239 --> 00:36:07.039
for Kimmel, we're still talking about Johnny and asking guests

764
00:36:07.079 --> 00:36:09.960
about Johnny. I mean, it speaks volumes. I think.

765
00:36:10.199 --> 00:36:12.280
I think if you watch the old monologues and the

766
00:36:12.280 --> 00:36:15.880
same is true of the young Bob Hope, there's the

767
00:36:16.000 --> 00:36:18.360
rhythm of the joke, so you could swap out the

768
00:36:18.400 --> 00:36:20.880
particular surname of the governor at that time or the

769
00:36:20.880 --> 00:36:23.880
president of the time, but the rhythm of comedy is

770
00:36:23.880 --> 00:36:26.360
there on those old monologues, and I think that's what's

771
00:36:26.400 --> 00:36:27.559
resonating with younger people.

772
00:36:28.800 --> 00:36:32.719
Yeah, I mean, the monologue was Johnny's favorite thing. It

773
00:36:32.840 --> 00:36:38.079
was definitely this process where the thing that I miss

774
00:36:38.119 --> 00:36:40.360
about the monologue in the last twenty years or so

775
00:36:40.480 --> 00:36:44.599
is that Johnny's monologue he either got laughs or silence,

776
00:36:45.119 --> 00:36:47.360
And in the last twenty years on the little late

777
00:36:47.440 --> 00:36:49.639
night shows, the clat no matter what I mean, if

778
00:36:49.639 --> 00:36:52.280
they had to suck on their hands and they couldn't

779
00:36:52.280 --> 00:36:54.960
do the clap an thing, I think that there would

780
00:36:54.960 --> 00:36:57.519
be some silences and it would be interesting. The jokes

781
00:36:57.559 --> 00:37:01.800
never bomb. Everybody either claps or here laughter, but they clap,

782
00:37:01.880 --> 00:37:05.400
and just that Johnny that there's I wonder today. I'm

783
00:37:05.440 --> 00:37:07.599
sure that some of those those hosts could add up

784
00:37:07.599 --> 00:37:09.719
and be funny with I just kind of missed like

785
00:37:09.760 --> 00:37:12.400
Johnny was like a high wire at doing that because

786
00:37:12.440 --> 00:37:14.320
he could cover with the with the bombing, and I

787
00:37:14.320 --> 00:37:16.320
think that was like part of the charm with him

788
00:37:16.400 --> 00:37:19.000
is that he was so he would make fun of

789
00:37:19.079 --> 00:37:22.880
himself and just put himself in a situation like that

790
00:37:22.920 --> 00:37:26.079
where the other hosts now don't have to worry about that.

791
00:37:26.239 --> 00:37:29.480
But there was just that something amazing, Like I talk

792
00:37:29.519 --> 00:37:31.559
about this in the book a little bit, like there

793
00:37:31.559 --> 00:37:35.159
were sketches where the writers learned very quickly, you don't

794
00:37:35.199 --> 00:37:37.000
want to put a phone in his sketch because Johnny,

795
00:37:37.039 --> 00:37:38.360
if it's not going, I can pick up the phone

796
00:37:38.360 --> 00:37:40.199
and be like, let's fire. The writers, you don't want

797
00:37:40.199 --> 00:37:42.000
to put a lighter in the sketch because he could

798
00:37:42.039 --> 00:37:44.000
set fire to the script that's in front of him

799
00:37:44.039 --> 00:37:47.039
at the desk, because if it's not funny and stuff.

800
00:37:47.079 --> 00:37:49.719
So because sometimes it would like Doc would play taps

801
00:37:49.719 --> 00:37:53.199
if a sketch bombed, or if like the monologue joke.

802
00:37:53.239 --> 00:37:56.599
But there was definitely like humanity and people loved him

803
00:37:56.639 --> 00:37:58.880
more for it. That's why he kept in all the

804
00:37:58.920 --> 00:38:01.519
mistakes for the most part. When Robert Gulay is up

805
00:38:01.559 --> 00:38:04.039
there in eighty six, nineteen eighty six and forgets the

806
00:38:04.079 --> 00:38:07.840
words to Memories from the show Cats and he just

807
00:38:07.880 --> 00:38:10.079
turns to Johnny, He's like, no, you're gonna keep going.

808
00:38:10.119 --> 00:38:12.800
We're gonna get this and keeps everything in, saying with

809
00:38:12.880 --> 00:38:14.840
John Davidson when he forgot the words to a song,

810
00:38:14.880 --> 00:38:17.000
he's like, no, you're gonna get it right. The audience

811
00:38:17.119 --> 00:38:20.360
just loves the performer even more. It's that makes them

812
00:38:20.599 --> 00:38:24.199
human and just it was a genius. Now they would

813
00:38:24.199 --> 00:38:27.079
just stop tape, but Johnny just was all about, let's

814
00:38:27.159 --> 00:38:29.880
keep all these imperfections in, and it was wonderful. I

815
00:38:29.880 --> 00:38:32.360
think that was really a charm, and I kind of

816
00:38:32.360 --> 00:38:34.800
missed the whole of that whole thing, just keeping all

817
00:38:34.800 --> 00:38:35.639
the mistakes in.

818
00:38:35.920 --> 00:38:38.880
And refresh my memory. I think you just addressed this.

819
00:38:39.239 --> 00:38:41.480
When Joe Coy hosted the Golden Globes, he caught a

820
00:38:41.519 --> 00:38:43.920
lot of guff for throwing his writers under the bus.

821
00:38:43.920 --> 00:38:47.679
But I seem to remember Johnny joking about the writers

822
00:38:47.719 --> 00:38:50.280
when a joke didn't land, and it was charming. And

823
00:38:50.320 --> 00:38:52.320
I don't want to debate Joe Coy, but was that

824
00:38:52.400 --> 00:38:55.880
something Johnny would do? Would reference the writers very rarely.

825
00:38:55.880 --> 00:38:57.800
I mean I would talk to writers and said, I

826
00:38:57.880 --> 00:38:59.960
asked numerous ones. Did you get in trouble with Joe?

827
00:39:00.159 --> 00:39:03.199
He said absolutely not. He never blamed any of us.

828
00:39:03.400 --> 00:39:07.559
He said I picked the jokes. He took full responsibility.

829
00:39:07.800 --> 00:39:10.920
The thing like Carson said that I think Joy had

830
00:39:10.960 --> 00:39:13.400
a really tough time with hosting the Golden Globes is

831
00:39:13.480 --> 00:39:16.360
Carson w always say it's eighty percent acceptance. If the

832
00:39:16.440 --> 00:39:19.239
audience accepts you, you get in out there, it is

833
00:39:19.320 --> 00:39:21.360
so much easier they know who you are. And it

834
00:39:21.400 --> 00:39:23.400
took it took Johnny a little bit because he was

835
00:39:23.440 --> 00:39:26.679
this game show host and for the audience to accept

836
00:39:26.880 --> 00:39:29.400
somebody is something different. And I don't think the Golden

837
00:39:29.440 --> 00:39:32.440
Globe audience really it is certainly not in America where

838
00:39:32.480 --> 00:39:35.559
he was not a household name by any means. So

839
00:39:35.639 --> 00:39:37.880
I think it's just much harder time to do that.

840
00:39:37.920 --> 00:39:40.599
Whereas Ricky Gervais, they steps on stage and people get

841
00:39:40.599 --> 00:39:43.320
his sensibility right away and they know where what to expect.

842
00:39:43.360 --> 00:39:46.760
Same with Carson. It is extremely hard for somebody that

843
00:39:46.880 --> 00:39:50.559
is not accepted, as Carson would say, to go up

844
00:39:50.639 --> 00:39:54.360
there as you're just it's just the battle is it's

845
00:39:54.440 --> 00:39:55.360
it's just harder.

846
00:39:55.519 --> 00:39:57.480
I think may berghets he just suffered from that on

847
00:39:57.519 --> 00:40:00.559
the Emmy. He's a very likable guy, very popular comedian,

848
00:40:00.880 --> 00:40:04.480
but he's not La Hollywood, and I think he struggled

849
00:40:04.480 --> 00:40:05.239
for the same reason.

850
00:40:05.960 --> 00:40:08.679
I just think like certain people are built for certain shows,

851
00:40:08.719 --> 00:40:10.960
Like I think he was really great on Saturday Night Live,

852
00:40:11.000 --> 00:40:13.360
and I think it was probably a smart thing to

853
00:40:13.360 --> 00:40:15.360
play to the strengths to do that type piece that

854
00:40:15.440 --> 00:40:18.199
I know that did well on S and L the

855
00:40:18.239 --> 00:40:21.280
same premise. But yeah, I mean, there's just certain some

856
00:40:21.400 --> 00:40:24.320
people that were born to do that show. Like I mean,

857
00:40:25.159 --> 00:40:26.920
a lot of people I've talked to us will tell

858
00:40:26.960 --> 00:40:30.199
me they think Johnny and these are people that didn't

859
00:40:30.239 --> 00:40:32.360
work on the show told me that they thought he

860
00:40:32.400 --> 00:40:34.599
was the best Oscars host by far. I mean he hosted,

861
00:40:34.599 --> 00:40:37.039
I think it was four or five times, in the

862
00:40:37.119 --> 00:40:39.960
fact that he was able to do it that many times,

863
00:40:39.960 --> 00:40:43.440
and he clashed with the director Mars Marty Pissetta, and

864
00:40:43.519 --> 00:40:47.440
he it wasn't always easy, but he did very, very well.

865
00:40:47.679 --> 00:40:50.159
Mart You know, he wanted Johnny, like if you notice

866
00:40:50.199 --> 00:40:52.639
on the monolog he always, unless he made fun of

867
00:40:52.960 --> 00:40:56.119
Doc's outfit or whatever, he wanted this that always to

868
00:40:56.199 --> 00:40:58.920
remain on him the camera and never did audience cutaways,

869
00:40:59.119 --> 00:41:01.440
whereas Marty Passett when he directed Oscars, wanted to do

870
00:41:01.480 --> 00:41:03.920
cutaways and Johnny wanted to keep the lights down like

871
00:41:03.960 --> 00:41:06.559
he did in Burbank. And he always this thought of

872
00:41:06.599 --> 00:41:10.039
a joke bomb he could he could say that but

873
00:41:10.119 --> 00:41:12.639
with his reaction on his face, rather than if they

874
00:41:12.679 --> 00:41:16.639
did cutaways. But he felt like that was the way

875
00:41:16.719 --> 00:41:20.960
that he could he could make if jokes didn't do well,

876
00:41:21.360 --> 00:41:23.159
that if the camera just would stay on him. So

877
00:41:23.199 --> 00:41:26.719
they hit all these different philosophies and it was definitely

878
00:41:26.880 --> 00:41:30.559
a hard collaboration. But Johnny I think his work is

879
00:41:30.599 --> 00:41:33.159
the Oscars. I think his film historians when they look

880
00:41:33.199 --> 00:41:37.639
back and TV historians, I think he's definitely one of

881
00:41:37.679 --> 00:41:39.400
the best, if not the best. I think that's done

882
00:41:39.400 --> 00:41:41.199
the Oscars in the top the race. Certainly.

883
00:41:41.440 --> 00:41:44.000
As somebody who's been had a media career of thirty

884
00:41:44.000 --> 00:41:47.280
five almost years now, I always appreciate a professional host.

885
00:41:47.280 --> 00:41:50.119
There are some talk show hosts. I would put Johnny

886
00:41:50.119 --> 00:41:53.599
Carson in this category. The current generation of late night hosts.

887
00:41:53.599 --> 00:41:55.079
There are people you could wake up at three in

888
00:41:55.119 --> 00:41:57.440
the morning and be like, Hey, we've got an emergency.

889
00:41:57.519 --> 00:42:00.039
I need you to host the Oscars right now. I

890
00:42:00.199 --> 00:42:02.519
read the cue cards and then throw it to break

891
00:42:02.559 --> 00:42:03.840
and then I'll tell you what to do next. And

892
00:42:03.840 --> 00:42:05.920
there are people like that that can do that. I'm

893
00:42:05.960 --> 00:42:08.360
a big Ryan Seacrest fan. I know people like to

894
00:42:08.360 --> 00:42:11.119
give Ryan the business, but there's something about being a

895
00:42:11.159 --> 00:42:14.280
professional traffic cop host that is underappreciated.

896
00:42:14.639 --> 00:42:18.719
I mean broadcaster, and people that are good broadcasters make

897
00:42:18.719 --> 00:42:22.760
it look so easy. Like Dave Letterman recently mentioned the

898
00:42:22.800 --> 00:42:26.079
late Regis vill Ben, and he always has to preface this.

899
00:42:26.079 --> 00:42:29.079
I've heard him say this before that people think it's

900
00:42:29.119 --> 00:42:31.719
a joke about what a good broadcaster he was, but

901
00:42:31.880 --> 00:42:34.840
he was unbelievable that he could do that the host

902
00:42:34.880 --> 00:42:38.199
chat without any script and like just be interesting and

903
00:42:38.400 --> 00:42:40.800
just be likable and go on Dave's show and they

904
00:42:40.800 --> 00:42:42.800
would do a pre interview, but never get to it

905
00:42:42.840 --> 00:42:44.800
that he was able to do that. There are certain

906
00:42:44.800 --> 00:42:47.760
people that just have that skill set that could just

907
00:42:47.840 --> 00:42:50.800
get up like you're saying, without much to little prep

908
00:42:50.840 --> 00:42:52.760
and be able to do well. I will say this though,

909
00:42:52.800 --> 00:42:54.400
and I talk about this in the book which comes

910
00:42:54.400 --> 00:42:58.800
out October twenty First Love Jenny Carson is that Carson

911
00:42:59.320 --> 00:43:02.800
was the only, to my knowledge was still the only

912
00:43:02.960 --> 00:43:06.480
person that would host those shows without any teleprompter or

913
00:43:06.599 --> 00:43:10.199
Q coch wow really would he had he would do

914
00:43:10.239 --> 00:43:15.440
the mnemonic device. He did something I've heard two different versions.

915
00:43:15.440 --> 00:43:17.440
One was Harry I know Harry Loreno went on the

916
00:43:17.480 --> 00:43:19.480
show who was a magician like he went on a

917
00:43:19.480 --> 00:43:21.599
bunch of times that he had a technique. And there

918
00:43:21.679 --> 00:43:23.719
was another person that had a technique as well that

919
00:43:23.719 --> 00:43:25.519
went on the show and memorize. And I know Johnny

920
00:43:25.559 --> 00:43:28.639
took a class speed reading, a class. He was very

921
00:43:28.719 --> 00:43:32.199
he liked taking courses in classes. He took a class

922
00:43:32.280 --> 00:43:35.519
on mnemonic so he would memorize. And his whole thing

923
00:43:35.559 --> 00:43:39.119
with memorizing, he is that he could he if he

924
00:43:39.159 --> 00:43:41.440
could read the audience and felt like if you wanted

925
00:43:41.480 --> 00:43:45.440
to insert joke. The fourth joke he memorized, maybe he

926
00:43:45.440 --> 00:43:48.320
would put that seven and he could he could edit

927
00:43:48.440 --> 00:43:50.960
in his head. Doc Seffnston told me he had never

928
00:43:51.000 --> 00:43:54.280
seen a performer that could edit as he was speaking.

929
00:43:54.360 --> 00:43:57.480
He could edit in his head and think about what

930
00:43:57.559 --> 00:44:00.239
he was going to be either if he was in

931
00:44:00.280 --> 00:44:02.119
with guests, like what are you going to ask next?

932
00:44:02.199 --> 00:44:05.119
Or listen to the person, but then also be able

933
00:44:05.159 --> 00:44:08.480
to do both things in multitask as a host, and

934
00:44:08.639 --> 00:44:10.800
that skill set. I don't know how many people can

935
00:44:10.840 --> 00:44:12.880
do that, but Johnny was just brilliant at it.

936
00:44:13.239 --> 00:44:17.000
Mark Malcoff's book is Love Johnny Carson. We're coming up

937
00:44:18.159 --> 00:44:21.719
these days. You're hosting the Inside Late Night Podcast. We're

938
00:44:21.760 --> 00:44:23.599
between seasons as I speak to you now, I'm going

939
00:44:23.639 --> 00:44:25.760
to deliberally date this on Monday, because I'm going to

940
00:44:25.800 --> 00:44:28.840
start asking you some topical question and it's quite possible

941
00:44:28.840 --> 00:44:31.159
as we're sitting here in the studio that nine news

942
00:44:31.159 --> 00:44:34.000
stories have broken. So, in case we are dated, this

943
00:44:34.039 --> 00:44:38.159
is Monday, September twenty second, around a lunchtime. So you're

944
00:44:38.159 --> 00:44:41.559
hosting the Inside Late Night Podcast, which is between seasons.

945
00:44:41.639 --> 00:44:44.360
Right now, where did that come from when the Carson

946
00:44:44.360 --> 00:44:45.119
Podcast ended.

947
00:44:45.599 --> 00:44:48.079
I do want to mention it comes back tomorrow with

948
00:44:48.159 --> 00:44:52.519
the new season. Unless something happens. We're all set to

949
00:44:52.559 --> 00:44:56.119
do a new season on Yah September twenty third, Tuesdays

950
00:44:56.159 --> 00:44:57.039
on Late night Er.

951
00:44:57.119 --> 00:45:00.480
Well that's hopefully today as the audience, here's this. I'm

952
00:45:00.480 --> 00:45:03.280
planning on dropping this on Tuesday unless my life goes sideway.

953
00:45:03.320 --> 00:45:05.039
So oh good, good timing.

954
00:45:04.760 --> 00:45:07.599
The twenty third guest So today, wasn't that a great

955
00:45:07.599 --> 00:45:10.760
podcast episode? Everyone? So yeah, it was one of those

956
00:45:10.760 --> 00:45:13.679
things where I loved talking to people about Carson. But

957
00:45:13.800 --> 00:45:16.440
at the time, I was running out of people because

958
00:45:16.480 --> 00:45:18.360
you had all these people that were even when they

959
00:45:18.400 --> 00:45:22.000
were kids, like Neil Patrick Harris, Jason Bateman, Drew Barrymore

960
00:45:22.079 --> 00:45:24.440
that they're all now like in either their late forties

961
00:45:24.519 --> 00:45:27.320
or early fifties, and it was just like the people

962
00:45:27.320 --> 00:45:29.360
that I wanted to talk to had either passed away

963
00:45:30.960 --> 00:45:32.800
or it was just it was just getting I was

964
00:45:32.880 --> 00:45:34.679
running out of guest so it was a little harder. So,

965
00:45:35.039 --> 00:45:37.320
you know, I have I think I have a skill set,

966
00:45:37.360 --> 00:45:39.760
pretty good skill set with late night stuff. The things

967
00:45:39.760 --> 00:45:41.880
I know about or the things I'm curious about. On

968
00:45:41.960 --> 00:45:43.880
some of the other shows. So I just wanted to

969
00:45:44.000 --> 00:45:46.199
kind of go broad and talk to people from Saturday

970
00:45:46.280 --> 00:45:49.559
Night Live and people that did Latterman and other variety

971
00:45:49.599 --> 00:45:51.880
shows and talk shows and just kind of picked their

972
00:45:51.920 --> 00:45:54.679
brains and ask the questions I've always wanted to ask,

973
00:45:54.760 --> 00:45:57.599
Like I really loved talking to Bert Sugarman, who is

974
00:45:57.599 --> 00:46:00.480
the creator of Midnight Special. But Bert Sugarman's Night Special

975
00:46:00.480 --> 00:46:02.840
and Johnny Carson and him were neighbors and tennis buddies,

976
00:46:02.880 --> 00:46:06.159
and yeah, Burt was the one that told Johnny about

977
00:46:06.199 --> 00:46:09.239
his idea he wanted to do after his show on Fridays,

978
00:46:09.239 --> 00:46:12.360
and Johnny's like, absolutely, let's do this, and really supported

979
00:46:12.400 --> 00:46:16.079
Burke Sugarman's Midnight Special, which I think debuted in seventy three,

980
00:46:16.159 --> 00:46:18.599
and it was like revolutionary that there was another late

981
00:46:18.679 --> 00:46:22.039
night show. And that's how Tom Snyder because they're like, oh, wow,

982
00:46:22.119 --> 00:46:25.119
you mean we can do other stuff after Johnny's show

983
00:46:25.199 --> 00:46:28.400
and original program, and so yeah, just talking to a

984
00:46:28.400 --> 00:46:32.440
lot of people in late night has been really, really fun.

985
00:46:32.639 --> 00:46:35.000
Well, let's go down the punch list of the big

986
00:46:35.039 --> 00:46:37.960
news story a few months ago the Late Show coming

987
00:46:38.000 --> 00:46:40.679
to an end was the Late Show losing forty million dollars?

988
00:46:40.800 --> 00:46:41.960
Was this about something else?

989
00:46:42.039 --> 00:46:42.199
Where?

990
00:46:42.199 --> 00:46:43.360
Are you on the conspiracies?

991
00:46:43.719 --> 00:46:46.280
I have no idea. I'm friends with people over there.

992
00:46:46.360 --> 00:46:48.880
I've worked on the Comedy Central version of the Colt

993
00:46:48.920 --> 00:46:53.119
Beat Report for three years and eight months. And I

994
00:46:53.480 --> 00:46:57.280
don't know. I don't know the I don't know the economics.

995
00:46:57.360 --> 00:47:00.599
I know things have changed in the last whatever for years,

996
00:47:00.599 --> 00:47:03.679
just with viewership, if network television going down, I don't

997
00:47:03.760 --> 00:47:08.320
understand the metrics. There are way more people watching late

998
00:47:08.440 --> 00:47:11.320
night online and it's amazing to look at the millions

999
00:47:11.360 --> 00:47:15.239
and millions of people on YouTube and other platforms. But

1000
00:47:15.360 --> 00:47:17.639
I don't know. I have no idea. I just it

1001
00:47:17.679 --> 00:47:19.880
never occurred to me that you could be number one

1002
00:47:20.320 --> 00:47:24.320
and that this would be a possibility. But I do

1003
00:47:24.440 --> 00:47:27.639
not know. Uh. But I'm glad they just won the Emmy,

1004
00:47:28.199 --> 00:47:32.360
and I'm glad that they're gonna at least get till May.

1005
00:47:33.079 --> 00:47:36.679
But yeah, it's it's just it stanks for people's jobs.

1006
00:47:36.519 --> 00:47:38.719
It's a shame any it's like for any show like

1007
00:47:38.760 --> 00:47:40.440
that to go under. I mean, there's a lot of

1008
00:47:40.440 --> 00:47:41.480
great people over there.

1009
00:47:41.719 --> 00:47:44.239
I'm surprised they didn't look at things like do you

1010
00:47:44.239 --> 00:47:46.039
need two hundred staffers? Can we do with one eighty?

1011
00:47:46.079 --> 00:47:47.760
Do we need five shows a week? Can we do four?

1012
00:47:47.840 --> 00:47:49.639
Can we do three? Do we do we need the

1013
00:47:49.760 --> 00:47:52.239
Ed Sullivan Theater? Like that? God was me?

1014
00:47:52.679 --> 00:47:55.760
That was I was very because to my knowledge talking

1015
00:47:55.760 --> 00:47:59.599
into people over there, there weren't. I was thinking that

1016
00:47:59.639 --> 00:48:02.239
they would the writers in half or try out different things.

1017
00:48:02.239 --> 00:48:05.000
Into my knowledge, none of that stuff happened to my knowledge,

1018
00:48:05.440 --> 00:48:08.000
and I thought that there'd be some foreshadow in and there,

1019
00:48:08.000 --> 00:48:11.599
to my knowledge, there wasn't there. Maybe I'm wrong, but yeah,

1020
00:48:11.719 --> 00:48:16.039
that was that. That definitely to me was surprising that

1021
00:48:16.039 --> 00:48:18.519
that if that was the case, that there wouldn't have

1022
00:48:18.639 --> 00:48:20.960
been some concessions made.

1023
00:48:21.639 --> 00:48:23.800
I'm also surprised that for any of these shows that

1024
00:48:23.800 --> 00:48:26.199
we're going to talk about, no one has tried doing

1025
00:48:26.239 --> 00:48:29.159
them live or close to live on a streamer like

1026
00:48:29.760 --> 00:48:31.800
I know it's called The Late Show, where the Tonight Show,

1027
00:48:32.239 --> 00:48:35.320
but I'd probably put more eyes on them if either

1028
00:48:35.320 --> 00:48:38.000
of those shows were available to me. At eight Eastern,

1029
00:48:38.119 --> 00:48:41.360
I go to bed. I'm old, and if something interesting

1030
00:48:41.400 --> 00:48:43.280
happens the next day, I'm not going to go back

1031
00:48:43.280 --> 00:48:45.320
and watch it on a DVR anymore, because I'll see

1032
00:48:45.320 --> 00:48:48.559
the clips on social But if it were live ish

1033
00:48:48.639 --> 00:48:50.559
at eight Eastern, I might stare at it.

1034
00:48:50.960 --> 00:48:53.599
Yeah, like John Mulaney, I think he did that for

1035
00:48:53.679 --> 00:48:55.719
net Fletzi. I don't know how many episodes he did

1036
00:48:55.760 --> 00:48:59.280
two seasons. It certainly wasn't every night. I mean he

1037
00:48:59.360 --> 00:49:02.599
did it, yeah, I mean, I forget how many shows

1038
00:49:02.599 --> 00:49:02.880
it were.

1039
00:49:03.039 --> 00:49:06.719
The second season was twelve, the first season was several

1040
00:49:06.800 --> 00:49:07.639
nights in a row.

1041
00:49:07.800 --> 00:49:10.119
Because he was the first were just okay. I think

1042
00:49:10.199 --> 00:49:12.719
like somebody that I read an article that said it

1043
00:49:12.760 --> 00:49:15.119
was just okay, and they haven't committed to doing more.

1044
00:49:15.440 --> 00:49:18.360
And I know that, and I admire mulaney. He wanted

1045
00:49:18.360 --> 00:49:20.559
to put on people he wanted to, like. I love

1046
00:49:20.639 --> 00:49:23.000
the fact he had Joan Bias on the show, and

1047
00:49:23.079 --> 00:49:26.239
it was certainly at least in one interview he mentioned

1048
00:49:26.280 --> 00:49:28.719
that some of the people like they wanted maybe some

1049
00:49:28.760 --> 00:49:32.440
bigger people on here and there, and he wanted to

1050
00:49:32.480 --> 00:49:34.840
do his own show. And I think it's great he

1051
00:49:34.840 --> 00:49:36.280
did the show he wanted to. And I love the

1052
00:49:36.320 --> 00:49:38.880
fact that he mentioned the set was modeled off of

1053
00:49:38.920 --> 00:49:42.000
photos he saw Johnny Carson's Malibu home. He had trees

1054
00:49:42.000 --> 00:49:43.840
in the studio, which I thought was a really cool

1055
00:49:44.480 --> 00:49:50.159
thing to Carson, But yeah, I don't know if. Yeah,

1056
00:49:50.159 --> 00:49:52.679
but if they did the show live, you did get

1057
00:49:52.719 --> 00:49:55.400
somebody that was doing that every every night, how that

1058
00:49:55.440 --> 00:49:58.559
would work? It would certainly be an interesting experiment. There's

1059
00:49:58.599 --> 00:50:04.480
certainly enough really funny hosts I think, and comedians or

1060
00:50:04.559 --> 00:50:08.480
personalities where you could try to make something like that happen.

1061
00:50:08.559 --> 00:50:10.760
Oh, I mean even just the Tonight show with Jimmy

1062
00:50:10.760 --> 00:50:12.559
fallon streaming on all you guys.

1063
00:50:12.760 --> 00:50:15.480
Well, they did talk about I did read an article,

1064
00:50:15.480 --> 00:50:17.039
and I guess I could be off on this too,

1065
00:50:17.079 --> 00:50:18.960
but I've read an article saying that they were thinking

1066
00:50:19.000 --> 00:50:21.960
about showing some of those shows on Peacock at like

1067
00:50:22.000 --> 00:50:25.559
eight o'clock or earlier. The affiliates balked, and the affiliates

1068
00:50:25.599 --> 00:50:28.159
pro were like, no, absolutely not, because they thought it

1069
00:50:28.159 --> 00:50:31.599
would kill their audience and some of the networks. And

1070
00:50:31.639 --> 00:50:35.960
I can see where they might be coming from. But

1071
00:50:36.119 --> 00:50:39.679
I don't know. But so it definitely was a discussion.

1072
00:50:40.320 --> 00:50:43.480
But yeah, if they did do those live on streaming,

1073
00:50:44.039 --> 00:50:46.719
that would be interesting. I would Yeah, I don't know

1074
00:50:46.920 --> 00:50:47.719
where it's gonna go.

1075
00:50:47.960 --> 00:50:50.239
I think we've reached the point where you can't worry

1076
00:50:50.239 --> 00:50:53.239
about the affiliates. What springs us to this week's big News,

1077
00:50:53.719 --> 00:50:56.199
Jimmy Kimmel, you think he walks, you think he comes

1078
00:50:56.239 --> 00:50:58.639
back and again recording on Monday, the story could have

1079
00:50:58.719 --> 00:51:00.920
changed seven times by the the time you answer this

1080
00:51:01.000 --> 00:51:01.760
and people hear it.

1081
00:51:02.320 --> 00:51:05.400
I'm just glad that he's that his staff is getting paid,

1082
00:51:05.440 --> 00:51:08.440
Steph and crew were getting paid. I have friends over there.

1083
00:51:08.480 --> 00:51:12.400
I've been over there to visit numerous times. I didn't

1084
00:51:12.440 --> 00:51:16.800
see that coming either. I mean, he's the first one

1085
00:51:16.800 --> 00:51:19.079
that said, you know, I don't know if these shows

1086
00:51:19.119 --> 00:51:22.039
are gonna be around in ten years. But yeah, it's

1087
00:51:22.079 --> 00:51:26.760
just I don't know. I I it's gonna be I

1088
00:51:26.800 --> 00:51:28.519
think it's gonna be a challenge for the thing to

1089
00:51:28.599 --> 00:51:32.039
come back, unfortunately, but I don't know. I feel like

1090
00:51:32.079 --> 00:51:34.639
the best thing that happened sometimes to certain of these

1091
00:51:34.679 --> 00:51:37.800
house like Honan is like the TBS show ended, and

1092
00:51:37.840 --> 00:51:42.199
then he is so much more, not only like powerful,

1093
00:51:42.280 --> 00:51:46.039
but like like just so much more, like just even beloved,

1094
00:51:46.079 --> 00:51:50.760
just doing his his his podcast and doing his doing

1095
00:51:50.800 --> 00:51:53.280
the podcast and then doing his HBO show. I mean,

1096
00:51:53.280 --> 00:51:55.719
I feel like they're for a lot of those hos,

1097
00:51:55.840 --> 00:51:59.440
some of these guys can maybe find a different outlet

1098
00:51:59.599 --> 00:52:03.960
that might be hopefully employ their staff as many people

1099
00:52:04.000 --> 00:52:07.880
as possible. But yeah, I don't know. I just didn't

1100
00:52:08.000 --> 00:52:11.360
see this come in with him, and I just hope

1101
00:52:11.360 --> 00:52:13.599
that people can still get paid for as long as

1102
00:52:13.599 --> 00:52:14.559
they possibly can.

1103
00:52:15.320 --> 00:52:18.800
New cycles and the obvious aside. I've always felt that

1104
00:52:18.880 --> 00:52:22.239
if one franchise survived, it would be The Tonight Show.

1105
00:52:22.840 --> 00:52:26.199
I do feel like I can with Late Night. I

1106
00:52:26.199 --> 00:52:28.480
don't feel like Seth Myers is doing Letterman Show. I

1107
00:52:28.519 --> 00:52:30.880
felt like Conan was doing Letterman Show sort of, but

1108
00:52:30.960 --> 00:52:33.800
in his own style. I can draw a through line

1109
00:52:33.800 --> 00:52:36.119
all the way from Steve Allen to Jimmy Fallon. It

1110
00:52:36.159 --> 00:52:38.960
feels like The Tonight Show. And I feel like at

1111
00:52:38.960 --> 00:52:42.280
some point, if you're a NBC, this is who we are,

1112
00:52:42.320 --> 00:52:44.320
with the Today Show and some shows and then the

1113
00:52:44.320 --> 00:52:47.480
Tonight Show, and that's who we are. I struggle to

1114
00:52:47.519 --> 00:52:51.320
see the Tonight Show going away. Especially Fallon is sales friendly,

1115
00:52:51.519 --> 00:52:55.360
willing to play ball, not particularly edgy. I think that

1116
00:52:55.400 --> 00:52:56.320
one will stick around.

1117
00:52:56.599 --> 00:52:59.639
He's on other NBC shows that he's hosting as well,

1118
00:52:59.719 --> 00:53:02.159
which I mean, if you've noticed Kimmel up until you

1119
00:53:02.199 --> 00:53:04.840
know recently he got yanked, but he was hosting Millionaire

1120
00:53:04.880 --> 00:53:07.760
for ABC who wants to be a millionaire. So I

1121
00:53:08.119 --> 00:53:10.360
don't know if that's part of like the double duty

1122
00:53:10.400 --> 00:53:14.719
stuff that is like now with with some ratings and monetizing,

1123
00:53:14.760 --> 00:53:16.199
if this is part of the deal that they have

1124
00:53:16.239 --> 00:53:19.400
them hosting other shows or how anything works. But I

1125
00:53:19.440 --> 00:53:22.559
think that that fallin in terms of the people that

1126
00:53:22.599 --> 00:53:25.199
watch the audience. He does a good job. I think

1127
00:53:25.199 --> 00:53:30.280
he did a good job recently addressing the whole Kimmel

1128
00:53:30.480 --> 00:53:32.480
where he mentioned I thought it was a funny joke

1129
00:53:32.519 --> 00:53:35.519
saying that, like his dad texted him like, I'm sorry

1130
00:53:35.519 --> 00:53:38.920
he got fired because people constantly are calling Kimmel fallen

1131
00:53:39.000 --> 00:53:42.079
and fallen Kimmel or thound. You did a good job

1132
00:53:42.119 --> 00:53:44.280
with that, And I hope he's he's around. I think

1133
00:53:44.320 --> 00:53:48.079
he's done a good job. I really do. I really though,

1134
00:53:48.199 --> 00:53:51.920
like revision is history. I know that he got a

1135
00:53:51.920 --> 00:53:54.039
lot of bad press for this, but if I was

1136
00:53:54.119 --> 00:53:58.360
the decision maker, I think that at the time I

1137
00:53:58.360 --> 00:54:00.320
would have given it to Brian Williams. I think he

1138
00:54:00.360 --> 00:54:04.360
would have succeeded wildly. There's so many news people that

1139
00:54:04.400 --> 00:54:07.440
went into entertainment and vice versa that have done different things,

1140
00:54:07.480 --> 00:54:09.719
but just you know, he was number one, I think

1141
00:54:09.719 --> 00:54:13.679
at NBC News, and so they to have somebody like

1142
00:54:14.360 --> 00:54:19.360
make that switch. I just they I just the way

1143
00:54:19.360 --> 00:54:23.480
it played out, especially publicly, it did him. It was

1144
00:54:23.519 --> 00:54:25.400
not good for him. But I think if he would

1145
00:54:25.440 --> 00:54:28.239
have been given that chance, I think he was. He's

1146
00:54:28.360 --> 00:54:32.079
so witty and so good at that at doing that broadcast,

1147
00:54:32.079 --> 00:54:36.119
and and so just the likability thing. I think. I

1148
00:54:36.119 --> 00:54:38.639
think his show, I think he would still be on

1149
00:54:38.679 --> 00:54:41.760
the air, if that's me. But I know that that

1150
00:54:41.760 --> 00:54:44.639
that that he never even came up, and but I

1151
00:54:44.719 --> 00:54:47.039
know he is his skill set that that he would

1152
00:54:47.079 --> 00:54:48.559
have done I think very well.

1153
00:54:48.880 --> 00:54:52.280
And Jimmy Fallon just turned fifty one, Colbert sixty one,

1154
00:54:52.440 --> 00:54:56.440
Kimmel's fifty seven, Johnny Carson retired at age sixty six.

1155
00:54:56.559 --> 00:54:59.960
Now that was a four cigarette packs a day sixty

1156
00:55:00.320 --> 00:55:04.159
as opposed to a salad sixty six. So we might

1157
00:55:04.199 --> 00:55:06.760
have been headed for a generational change in the near future.

1158
00:55:06.800 --> 00:55:11.440
Anyway, we'll see what happens. I mean, it's like Johnny

1159
00:55:11.480 --> 00:55:14.400
was doing two packs of Pall Mall's. I know that

1160
00:55:14.480 --> 00:55:18.079
his friend Michael Landon who passed away from pancreatic cancer,

1161
00:55:18.159 --> 00:55:21.400
and that they're saying that maybe the alcohol and cigarettes

1162
00:55:21.480 --> 00:55:23.920
was something he was doing. Some people say up to

1163
00:55:23.960 --> 00:55:27.800
four packs. It was just people were smoking and drinking

1164
00:55:27.880 --> 00:55:30.440
back then. It was just such a different time. Yeah,

1165
00:55:30.480 --> 00:55:33.280
like the younger, younger people to be interested. I really

1166
00:55:33.320 --> 00:55:35.679
hope with the late night shows never go away, like

1167
00:55:35.760 --> 00:55:38.639
I could see it being sicklical where you know, like

1168
00:55:38.800 --> 00:55:42.000
nobody ever thought that primetime game shows would come back,

1169
00:55:42.119 --> 00:55:45.039
and now, like I mean in the eighties or nineties,

1170
00:55:45.039 --> 00:55:47.360
if you ever thought there would be primetime game shows

1171
00:55:47.400 --> 00:55:50.400
like this, and they're all over the place now. So

1172
00:55:50.719 --> 00:55:53.840
I mean it's it's hard to say. I mean that

1173
00:55:53.880 --> 00:55:57.800
anybody can do things on YouTube when like with a phone,

1174
00:55:57.880 --> 00:56:00.239
and I think that these things hopefully will alway they

1175
00:56:00.320 --> 00:56:04.639
just exist in some format. But I definitely I don't

1176
00:56:04.679 --> 00:56:06.559
know if you're going to see the big bands and

1177
00:56:06.960 --> 00:56:10.480
anything or any more to the extent, which is I

1178
00:56:10.480 --> 00:56:11.360
think a big shame.

1179
00:56:12.239 --> 00:56:14.960
I do think they'll survive. Like you said, you may

1180
00:56:15.000 --> 00:56:17.880
pull back the budget. Really you just need a host

1181
00:56:17.920 --> 00:56:21.480
and a desk and a chair and you know basically

1182
00:56:21.480 --> 00:56:24.159
what Mark Maron does but film it. I do think

1183
00:56:24.199 --> 00:56:26.840
there's something for eleven thirty. Some people have asked about,

1184
00:56:26.840 --> 00:56:28.719
you know what, what else can Jimmy Kimmell do. And

1185
00:56:29.639 --> 00:56:33.920
one thing that is true, I've been showbusiness so showbiz

1186
00:56:33.960 --> 00:56:37.480
adjacent for a couple of decades. Now. In Hollywood, they

1187
00:56:37.480 --> 00:56:41.320
do keep score. You know, your Oscar is better than Miami,

1188
00:56:41.400 --> 00:56:43.760
and we both know it, and we keep score that way.

1189
00:56:44.119 --> 00:56:47.800
There is a big difference between I've got a late

1190
00:56:47.880 --> 00:56:50.159
night show at eleven thirty five and I've got a

1191
00:56:50.159 --> 00:56:53.000
podcast and make a lot of money.

1192
00:56:53.039 --> 00:56:55.920
I mean, the podcasters are all doing so well, and

1193
00:56:56.000 --> 00:56:58.320
a lot of them the people that are those comedians

1194
00:56:58.360 --> 00:57:01.880
that are doing selling out arena. I mean, it's unbelievable.

1195
00:57:02.360 --> 00:57:08.519
It's just it's different metrics definitely, like younger people listen

1196
00:57:08.639 --> 00:57:14.400
to like stuff like Theovaughn versus maybe watching the traditional

1197
00:57:14.480 --> 00:57:17.239
late night shows. It's just things have changed.

1198
00:57:17.719 --> 00:57:20.400
Oh sure, and money and money wise, Theovon is probably

1199
00:57:20.440 --> 00:57:23.960
doing really well, but at the fancy Hollywood party, if

1200
00:57:23.960 --> 00:57:26.800
we care about such things, Theovon is not Jimmy Fallon.

1201
00:57:27.440 --> 00:57:30.679
Yeah, and things definitely in terms of like traditional media,

1202
00:57:30.880 --> 00:57:34.719
which is just yeah, I mean things definitely, and broadcast

1203
00:57:34.760 --> 00:57:37.639
television and those type of It's like people that are

1204
00:57:37.719 --> 00:57:40.239
under thirty, I can't believe. And I do get it

1205
00:57:40.239 --> 00:57:42.719
just because it's so different, like the like the YouTube

1206
00:57:42.719 --> 00:57:45.000
people or the people that like we grew up with that,

1207
00:57:45.320 --> 00:57:47.559
Like you know, the mainstream people are like all on

1208
00:57:47.639 --> 00:57:50.079
YouTube people we probably don't even know, you know that

1209
00:57:50.480 --> 00:57:55.800
they that's who they've gravitated to. And it's yeah, it's

1210
00:57:55.840 --> 00:57:58.440
just completely a different boat ball game.

1211
00:57:58.519 --> 00:58:01.159
Well, you talked earlier about how you knew who some

1212
00:58:01.159 --> 00:58:04.320
of these celebrities were. We grew up in the monoculture

1213
00:58:04.440 --> 00:58:07.480
where I kind of knew who Humphrey Bogart was because

1214
00:58:07.519 --> 00:58:10.320
Bugs Bunny did an impression. I kind of knew who

1215
00:58:10.360 --> 00:58:14.079
Carry Grant was because you know, Rich Little did an impression,

1216
00:58:14.119 --> 00:58:16.760
or these people are on the Hollywood squares. I'll let

1217
00:58:16.800 --> 00:58:18.199
you go a second. I do want to talk to

1218
00:58:18.199 --> 00:58:22.280
you about Jay Leno, who had become obsessed with So

1219
00:58:22.440 --> 00:58:26.199
jay Leno recently said, you don't want to tick off

1220
00:58:26.199 --> 00:58:30.480
half your audience, which, according to Mark Malkoff, author of

1221
00:58:30.519 --> 00:58:33.360
the book Love Johnny Carson, is something Johnny Carson said,

1222
00:58:33.960 --> 00:58:37.199
But jay Leno was completely lionized. How dare he even

1223
00:58:37.239 --> 00:58:39.719
weigh in on this? So what does jay Leno know

1224
00:58:39.719 --> 00:58:42.159
about Late Night? He's the worst person ever. No, my

1225
00:58:42.320 --> 00:58:44.000
take and I've been doing a bit on Jay Leno's

1226
00:58:44.000 --> 00:58:46.079
the worst person ever? Is he seems like a nice

1227
00:58:46.079 --> 00:58:48.920
guy who's taking care of his wife who's suffering from dementia.

1228
00:58:49.679 --> 00:58:51.239
We can get into the conon of it all or

1229
00:58:51.320 --> 00:58:54.360
not well well debated, well discussed, but he seems like

1230
00:58:54.400 --> 00:58:57.639
an okay person. But anyway, why did we lionize Jay

1231
00:58:57.719 --> 00:58:59.559
Leno for saying, don't lose half your audience?

1232
00:59:00.880 --> 00:59:03.119
You don't know, I mean that there were definitely I

1233
00:59:03.119 --> 00:59:08.199
think people that some of those hosts that he was

1234
00:59:08.239 --> 00:59:10.280
talking about. I think some of the hosts probably didn't

1235
00:59:10.280 --> 00:59:13.000
appreciate and some of their audience. But I mean, Lena

1236
00:59:13.079 --> 00:59:16.000
has asked his opinion. I mean, I don't know. I

1237
00:59:16.039 --> 00:59:20.400
definitely think it's easy. He's an easy target to bash,

1238
00:59:20.480 --> 00:59:24.000
I think people. I mean, he was still an amazing

1239
00:59:24.119 --> 00:59:27.320
stand up comic and his letterman appearances when he was

1240
00:59:27.320 --> 00:59:30.559
with Dave on the NBC Show were amazing, amazing. He

1241
00:59:30.760 --> 00:59:33.880
was number one for his entire run on The Tonight

1242
00:59:33.960 --> 00:59:37.880
Show when he was host. You know, he's a really

1243
00:59:37.960 --> 00:59:40.320
really nice guy. I've met him a couple of times.

1244
00:59:40.360 --> 00:59:42.400
I mean, I would not want to compete with him.

1245
00:59:42.639 --> 00:59:44.400
There was definitely like when he was trying to get

1246
00:59:44.480 --> 00:59:47.400
Dave's job. I go into when him and Dave were

1247
00:59:47.440 --> 00:59:49.679
competing for old Dave really was and he was like,

1248
00:59:49.960 --> 00:59:52.760
I think the best person should get the gig. What

1249
00:59:53.039 --> 00:59:55.360
steps Lena was doing to get the Tonight Show, and

1250
00:59:55.440 --> 00:59:57.119
I talk about some of that stuff and some of

1251
00:59:57.159 --> 00:59:59.519
the stuff that went on with Conan. I think those

1252
00:59:59.519 --> 01:00:03.880
are the probably the things that maybe people have brought

1253
01:00:03.960 --> 01:00:06.639
up with, things that they might have issues with him.

1254
01:00:06.880 --> 01:00:09.599
But you know, I mean, I think at the end

1255
01:00:09.599 --> 01:00:12.679
of the day, I think Jay is just an amazing

1256
01:00:12.760 --> 01:00:17.480
stand up and yeah, I mean his Tonight Show. I mean, yeah,

1257
01:00:17.679 --> 01:00:19.599
you can't argue with being number one. I mean, I

1258
01:00:19.639 --> 01:00:22.760
definitely think it is hard for him from what I hear,

1259
01:00:23.400 --> 01:00:26.119
just the fact that, like every comedian, it seems like

1260
01:00:26.119 --> 01:00:28.800
in all that the TV historians is just like they

1261
01:00:28.880 --> 01:00:31.960
praise Dave and his Tonight Show and his innovation and

1262
01:00:32.079 --> 01:00:35.119
just everything he has done for comedy, and Jay kind

1263
01:00:35.119 --> 01:00:37.519
of gets a little bit forgotten on the Tonight Show.

1264
01:00:37.599 --> 01:00:40.119
But it was just a different choice. Jay's goal was

1265
01:00:40.159 --> 01:00:41.880
just to be number one, and he did that. But

1266
01:00:41.920 --> 01:00:45.360
I definitely think it did come with a price, which

1267
01:00:45.440 --> 01:00:48.119
is I think people with kind of like looking back

1268
01:00:48.159 --> 01:00:50.679
at the two of them and the shows and stuff,

1269
01:00:51.079 --> 01:00:54.000
Dave's stuff just kind of stands out and just remember more.

1270
01:00:54.639 --> 01:00:57.519
I think, like Jimmy Fallon, Jay Leno understood what the

1271
01:00:57.559 --> 01:00:59.800
Tonight Show is and how you do it, as you

1272
01:00:59.840 --> 01:01:04.239
said his Letterman appearances, we saw a different, edgier ish

1273
01:01:04.559 --> 01:01:06.920
Jay Leno back in the eighties. He understood what the

1274
01:01:06.920 --> 01:01:08.639
Tonight Show was. He executed the mission.

1275
01:01:09.239 --> 01:01:11.880
He was obsessed like a lot of people with I

1276
01:01:12.159 --> 01:01:14.559
don't know if Letterman was like this, but Jay was

1277
01:01:14.559 --> 01:01:17.039
obsessed with the writings. Every morning, look at the writings.

1278
01:01:17.039 --> 01:01:19.519
Would called Rick Ladwin, vice president of the NBC Late

1279
01:01:19.639 --> 01:01:22.320
Night how did you think this show was? He just needed,

1280
01:01:22.360 --> 01:01:24.599
like Rick told me, at least the late Rick Ludwin

1281
01:01:24.679 --> 01:01:28.079
that he needed. Jay needed, like I guess a superstitious

1282
01:01:28.079 --> 01:01:32.360
athlete or whatever, just approval from him every single day

1283
01:01:32.480 --> 01:01:36.559
until near the end when Rix supported the whole NBC

1284
01:01:36.679 --> 01:01:38.480
decided that Conan was going to take the Tonight Show

1285
01:01:38.519 --> 01:01:42.239
in four years, and Rick supported that, and Jay kind

1286
01:01:42.239 --> 01:01:46.079
of yeah, stopped talking to him for a bunch of time,

1287
01:01:46.159 --> 01:01:48.480
and near the end of Rick's life they did reunite,

1288
01:01:48.760 --> 01:01:53.639
which was good that they did get back on speaking

1289
01:01:53.719 --> 01:01:56.039
terms and friendly, but there were a bunch of years

1290
01:01:56.079 --> 01:01:59.280
where they weren't. And you know, I mean he I

1291
01:01:59.320 --> 01:02:02.159
think he knew his audience as well as Johnny in

1292
01:02:02.280 --> 01:02:05.440
terms of in terms of getting the ratings and staying

1293
01:02:05.480 --> 01:02:05.960
number one.

1294
01:02:06.400 --> 01:02:09.199
I do think it's insane he didn't mention the previous

1295
01:02:09.239 --> 01:02:12.039
host of The Tonight Show in his first episode. That

1296
01:02:12.159 --> 01:02:17.360
was his Managres's call. As the story goes, but just unbelievable.

1297
01:02:17.800 --> 01:02:19.519
It seemed like it was a very from the people

1298
01:02:19.559 --> 01:02:23.079
I've talked in a very unhealthy relationship and that she

1299
01:02:24.079 --> 01:02:29.800
was just controlling in that the dynamic was very complicated

1300
01:02:29.800 --> 01:02:33.039
and unhealthy. And I talked to Jay a little bit.

1301
01:02:33.119 --> 01:02:35.199
I talk about that in the in the book about

1302
01:02:35.199 --> 01:02:39.920
Helen Kushnik. Jay has gone on record so many times

1303
01:02:39.920 --> 01:02:44.840
saying that was a mistake, and yeah, Helen wanted Johnny

1304
01:02:44.920 --> 01:02:50.159
to acknowledge that Jay or do something on Johnny's last show,

1305
01:02:50.199 --> 01:02:53.519
and Johnny's like, no, not doing that. I mean, he

1306
01:02:53.599 --> 01:02:55.760
Johnny said to them, and I talk about this in

1307
01:02:55.760 --> 01:02:59.239
the book, he said, I just didn't I never understood

1308
01:02:59.239 --> 01:03:02.360
the whole Helen kush thing. She basically Johnny said, He's

1309
01:03:02.400 --> 01:03:05.079
like she Jane never would have gotten the permitted guest

1310
01:03:05.119 --> 01:03:06.880
host if it wasn't for Johnny's and if it wasn't

1311
01:03:06.880 --> 01:03:09.679
for me, they would not have gotten it. And it's

1312
01:03:09.760 --> 01:03:13.039
just like I never understood like like like our show,

1313
01:03:13.159 --> 01:03:15.239
like the thirty Years, like how they treated us in

1314
01:03:15.280 --> 01:03:18.480
how thirty years like we didn't exist or anything, and

1315
01:03:19.679 --> 01:03:22.320
just yeah, it wasn't yet that just that Pallenge just

1316
01:03:22.320 --> 01:03:25.599
didn't do Jay a certain Yeah, did him a disservice.

1317
01:03:25.800 --> 01:03:28.119
And that's Johnny's opinion. I talk about that.

1318
01:03:28.199 --> 01:03:31.960
When NBC hit the panic button on Conan, if j

1319
01:03:32.159 --> 01:03:35.000
says no, do they give Conan more rope? Do they call?

1320
01:03:35.159 --> 01:03:38.239
I don't know, Gary Shandling, what was the planed c.

1321
01:03:39.280 --> 01:03:41.920
I don't know. I have no idea. I talked to

1322
01:03:42.000 --> 01:03:43.719
Jay and I asked him because I said that one

1323
01:03:43.760 --> 01:03:45.639
of the reasons I think that they kept you is

1324
01:03:45.719 --> 01:03:47.159
good that if you would have left, they would have

1325
01:03:47.199 --> 01:03:50.760
had to pay they would have one of the reasons

1326
01:03:50.800 --> 01:03:52.360
that got rid of Conan is because they would have

1327
01:03:52.400 --> 01:03:53.760
had to pay you, like it was like one hundred

1328
01:03:53.760 --> 01:03:57.480
and fifty million. And Jay said that was absolutely not true,

1329
01:03:57.519 --> 01:04:00.320
that that day they didn't have to pay him all

1330
01:04:00.360 --> 01:04:02.679
that money, and that's the work. The reports that came out,

1331
01:04:03.000 --> 01:04:07.039
I don't know what they would have done with Conan Leban. Yeah,

1332
01:04:07.039 --> 01:04:09.639
the skill set is really tough. Maybe would have moved

1333
01:04:09.679 --> 01:04:13.000
falling up. I'm not sure, but it's yeah for the

1334
01:04:13.039 --> 01:04:16.320
Tonight Show for eleven thirty, it's a tough time slot

1335
01:04:16.320 --> 01:04:18.519
of somebody doesn't have their skills up to part me.

1336
01:04:18.760 --> 01:04:21.920
People forget like like Letterman was like the hottest thing

1337
01:04:21.960 --> 01:04:24.960
in TV in August of the ninety three when nineteen

1338
01:04:24.960 --> 01:04:27.119
eighty three and he premiered. He had done the show

1339
01:04:27.119 --> 01:04:29.639
for eleven and a half years. Prior to that, he

1340
01:04:29.679 --> 01:04:31.679
had guest hosted, he had a morning show, and he

1341
01:04:31.679 --> 01:04:34.639
had guest hosted for the for Carson all those times.

1342
01:04:34.800 --> 01:04:37.440
So by the time he got his show in February

1343
01:04:37.519 --> 01:04:40.199
of eighty two at twelve thirty, he had already had

1344
01:04:40.239 --> 01:04:43.119
so much practice. So the critics liked him and he

1345
01:04:43.199 --> 01:04:45.840
knew what he was doing. The interview is still it

1346
01:04:46.000 --> 01:04:47.880
still took him a little bit more time to figure

1347
01:04:47.920 --> 01:04:49.880
those things out, even with that practice. But by the

1348
01:04:49.920 --> 01:04:52.280
time you get to eleven thirty, if you don't know

1349
01:04:52.320 --> 01:04:54.400
what you're doing, they're going to collabor you. And that's

1350
01:04:54.440 --> 01:04:56.760
what happened to Colbert that first year when he was

1351
01:04:56.840 --> 01:04:59.719
at CBS sent me people forget But I just remember

1352
01:05:00.159 --> 01:05:04.159
on the message boards and comments on articles like Deadline Hollywood,

1353
01:05:04.679 --> 01:05:06.639
but I can't believe this is the worst mistake ever.

1354
01:05:06.719 --> 01:05:09.119
And like sure enough. I was like, just give him

1355
01:05:09.159 --> 01:05:10.880
a year and see if he figures it out. And

1356
01:05:10.920 --> 01:05:13.239
he did, and then he gets back he's a number one.

1357
01:05:13.440 --> 01:05:16.440
I mean, it's just that you need time to figure

1358
01:05:16.480 --> 01:05:18.159
out though shows. The line out too. I said to

1359
01:05:18.239 --> 01:05:21.519
Jay on the phone when we spoke, because he was

1360
01:05:21.559 --> 01:05:23.840
basically like, you know, if Conan show is better, I'm

1361
01:05:23.880 --> 01:05:25.599
like you, no one gets and they're like, Jay, your

1362
01:05:25.599 --> 01:05:28.039
show was not the great the first year. You got

1363
01:05:28.079 --> 01:05:30.880
all that time. You got to go to New York

1364
01:05:31.400 --> 01:05:34.400
to figure out like, oh this works with this type

1365
01:05:34.400 --> 01:05:37.199
of setup, go back to Burbank and switch studios and

1366
01:05:37.239 --> 01:05:39.519
have kind of like an eight ah Saturday night left

1367
01:05:39.599 --> 01:05:42.000
studio with the thrust stage of the audience up there.

1368
01:05:42.159 --> 01:05:46.239
You had wean more time. So I think I don't

1369
01:05:46.239 --> 01:05:48.719
think Conan had enough time. I mean, Jay certainly was

1370
01:05:48.760 --> 01:05:51.280
given more time to figure those things out. That they're

1371
01:05:51.360 --> 01:05:55.239
extremely hard. They look easy. There's people that watch them

1372
01:05:55.280 --> 01:05:57.639
the public that watch it and think that I could

1373
01:05:57.719 --> 01:06:02.159
do that, and I promise that that is probably It's like,

1374
01:06:02.360 --> 01:06:05.360
it's the hardest thing to do. People say, that's what

1375
01:06:05.400 --> 01:06:05.960
people say.

1376
01:06:06.559 --> 01:06:08.880
I think history proved that if you were going to

1377
01:06:08.880 --> 01:06:10.599
pull the plug on Cone and fair or not, that

1378
01:06:10.719 --> 01:06:14.400
Jay was the right move. I struggled to imagine thirty

1379
01:06:14.440 --> 01:06:16.880
six year old Jimmy Fallon and whatever it was twenty

1380
01:06:16.960 --> 01:06:17.840
nine and twenty ten.

1381
01:06:18.239 --> 01:06:20.360
Same age as Johnny when he took the Tonight Show.

1382
01:06:20.119 --> 01:06:23.440
But a different era, and and Fallon would have been

1383
01:06:23.519 --> 01:06:26.360
following a failed Tonight Show and now we're going to

1384
01:06:26.400 --> 01:06:29.880
throw another young buck in the chair. Uh yeah, I.

1385
01:06:29.800 --> 01:06:31.599
Don't know how that would have worked. It would have

1386
01:06:31.599 --> 01:06:34.800
been interesting. They have different processes. The one thing I

1387
01:06:34.840 --> 01:06:37.599
didn't with that Johnny did, which I don't really understand.

1388
01:06:37.599 --> 01:06:40.400
To my knowledge, I don't think any of the three

1389
01:06:40.519 --> 01:06:44.159
Kimmel's not unfore got yanked. But to my knowledge is

1390
01:06:44.199 --> 01:06:48.400
that this in New York. The writers would do his monologue,

1391
01:06:48.440 --> 01:06:51.000
but they would also look at the pre interview questions

1392
01:06:51.079 --> 01:06:53.400
the talent coordinators, and the talent coordinators and writers would

1393
01:06:53.400 --> 01:06:56.199
write Johnny's ad libs. There were so many famous ad libs,

1394
01:06:56.199 --> 01:06:58.760
and they would do that in Burbank only with the civilians.

1395
01:06:58.800 --> 01:07:01.800
With like the farmer potato chip Lady, they would write

1396
01:07:01.840 --> 01:07:04.039
even though that was Johnny's idea for the potato chip

1397
01:07:04.079 --> 01:07:06.360
lady to bite down on the chip when she wasn't looking.

1398
01:07:06.920 --> 01:07:09.480
But they would always give him ad libs. And I

1399
01:07:09.480 --> 01:07:11.880
don't know why some of the they don't do that

1400
01:07:12.000 --> 01:07:15.079
now with some of the with with some of the hosts,

1401
01:07:15.079 --> 01:07:17.039
But I don't think that that that's a thing. But

1402
01:07:17.119 --> 01:07:19.480
I think it really like New York, there's so many

1403
01:07:19.519 --> 01:07:22.639
things with Johnny and Nixon where they're both like so

1404
01:07:22.800 --> 01:07:26.039
witty and so likable in terms of some of their lines,

1405
01:07:26.039 --> 01:07:28.800
and I'm like, it's always all script, it down to

1406
01:07:28.840 --> 01:07:32.440
the syllable, and I just think like Johnny didn't always

1407
01:07:33.199 --> 01:07:36.159
go with those prepared ad libs, but sometimes he would.

1408
01:07:36.199 --> 01:07:39.199
He really the people told me he didn't need them,

1409
01:07:39.239 --> 01:07:42.000
but sometimes he would slip them in. I think it's

1410
01:07:42.119 --> 01:07:44.719
just a good thing to have. I would really do

1411
01:07:44.800 --> 01:07:47.320
think the host would benefit having those. I mean, he

1412
01:07:47.400 --> 01:07:49.239
was a genius at making them look like he was

1413
01:07:49.239 --> 01:07:50.800
making them off the top of the head. When he

1414
01:07:50.840 --> 01:07:53.519
would do a segment in la If the writing was bad.

1415
01:07:53.559 --> 01:07:55.400
He didn't like the writing that day. He would do

1416
01:07:55.519 --> 01:07:57.599
something like Blue Cards, where the audience would be in

1417
01:07:57.639 --> 01:07:59.920
line and they would write down questions for Johnny and

1418
01:08:00.119 --> 01:08:02.280
the writers would have ninety minutes to come up with

1419
01:08:02.679 --> 01:08:05.679
ad libs for Johnny to type a secretary type on

1420
01:08:05.760 --> 01:08:09.199
a car, and Johnny would read these real questions and

1421
01:08:09.239 --> 01:08:12.599
then you could not tell that they were prepared ad libs.

1422
01:08:12.639 --> 01:08:15.119
I mean, it was just like even Mike Greese, who

1423
01:08:15.119 --> 01:08:19.079
was a writer for Carson Simpson's producer, was telling me

1424
01:08:19.119 --> 01:08:22.159
Hughes with his mom and they were watching the show,

1425
01:08:22.239 --> 01:08:24.159
and Mike like, I just wrote that, and he's like, no,

1426
01:08:24.319 --> 01:08:26.680
Johnny just came up with that. She didn't. It couldn't

1427
01:08:27.520 --> 01:08:29.840
make no sense that that an ad lib like that

1428
01:08:29.960 --> 01:08:33.520
would be prepared, because it's so natural the way he

1429
01:08:33.560 --> 01:08:37.119
was able to throw those things out. But yeah, amazing.

1430
01:08:37.199 --> 01:08:39.279
Joan Rivers had the same skill set on her radio show.

1431
01:08:39.319 --> 01:08:41.560
She had two writers with her. They'd rip up pieces

1432
01:08:41.560 --> 01:08:43.560
of paper, pass her note to deliver the line, nail

1433
01:08:43.600 --> 01:08:45.159
it and throw the thing behind her and would clean

1434
01:08:45.199 --> 01:08:46.479
it up after the show. But she had it.

1435
01:08:47.039 --> 01:08:49.279
It's unbelievable how they made it look easy. I mean,

1436
01:08:49.359 --> 01:08:51.399
Joan when she had her laid show on Fox, that

1437
01:08:51.560 --> 01:08:55.479
was harder. Like the interviews, she definitely was not listening

1438
01:08:55.720 --> 01:08:57.680
as much as she should have. A lot of people

1439
01:08:57.720 --> 01:09:00.319
said in terms of like to her guest and it

1440
01:09:00.359 --> 01:09:03.199
was just it was just a hard skill set. I mean,

1441
01:09:03.279 --> 01:09:05.199
I think even though she had all that time when

1442
01:09:05.199 --> 01:09:08.399
she was guest hosting for Johnny, it just to do

1443
01:09:08.479 --> 01:09:12.600
it night after night versus every you know, like a week,

1444
01:09:12.640 --> 01:09:16.199
every like five weeks. It was just she just couldn't

1445
01:09:16.239 --> 01:09:18.159
do it. I mean, it's a shame. I mean, I

1446
01:09:18.199 --> 01:09:22.079
definitely think maybe she would have succeeded, I mean a

1447
01:09:22.079 --> 01:09:24.600
little bit more, because if Barry Diller after ten months

1448
01:09:24.600 --> 01:09:26.479
I think it was ten months, was like we're firing,

1449
01:09:26.560 --> 01:09:29.640
we're getting rid of your husband's producer, and Joan thought

1450
01:09:29.680 --> 01:09:31.840
he was buff bluffing as if no, and then Barry

1451
01:09:31.840 --> 01:09:35.039
Diller promptly fired her from the position. But I definitely

1452
01:09:35.079 --> 01:09:36.960
think if she would have stayed, maybe she would have

1453
01:09:37.000 --> 01:09:38.399
figured it out a little bit more and they would

1454
01:09:38.399 --> 01:09:39.640
have been able to take the writings up. I mean,

1455
01:09:39.640 --> 01:09:42.079
the writings were not good when she left when she

1456
01:09:42.199 --> 01:09:46.000
was at the show near the end, But I don't know,

1457
01:09:46.079 --> 01:09:48.760
I think Joan had good intentions, and I just think

1458
01:09:48.800 --> 01:09:51.359
she in terms of not telling Johnny, I go into

1459
01:09:51.439 --> 01:09:53.800
that in the book, but I definitely think it was

1460
01:09:53.880 --> 01:09:55.640
some of some of it had to do a lot

1461
01:09:55.680 --> 01:09:57.800
of it had to do unfortunately with her husband, Edgar

1462
01:09:57.960 --> 01:10:02.399
Rosenberg kind of hurt like listening to him and his

1463
01:10:02.479 --> 01:10:04.640
opinions and just kind of differing him, and I think

1464
01:10:04.680 --> 01:10:09.319
it ultimately was not a good thing. I think it's.

1465
01:10:09.199 --> 01:10:12.439
Also a brand mismatch. You know, Fox, especially in those days,

1466
01:10:12.520 --> 01:10:16.159
was edgy sitcoms and Simpson's and then you're you're throwing

1467
01:10:16.199 --> 01:10:19.479
on you know, Joan Rivers from Las Vegas, a little

1468
01:10:19.520 --> 01:10:23.479
older than your demo. It visually looks kind of eighty cheesy.

1469
01:10:23.600 --> 01:10:26.880
The set I think has not aged well. So I

1470
01:10:26.920 --> 01:10:28.800
think there's a lot of that there, Whereas in the

1471
01:10:28.800 --> 01:10:32.479
scenario where had Conan gone to Fox, that made more sense.

1472
01:10:33.000 --> 01:10:35.199
Now Conan may have been older than Joan Rivers was

1473
01:10:35.479 --> 01:10:38.520
in these scenarios, but Conan just feels more Foxy than

1474
01:10:38.560 --> 01:10:39.319
Joan Rivers did.

1475
01:10:39.640 --> 01:10:42.279
Yeah, I definitely think it would be more of a fit.

1476
01:10:42.319 --> 01:10:44.079
I mean, it was tough with Joan because it's like

1477
01:10:44.359 --> 01:10:47.439
she's doing these stunts like given a Victoria Principal's home

1478
01:10:47.600 --> 01:10:52.000
number on air and like Victoria Principles, like I suit

1479
01:10:52.079 --> 01:10:54.079
her or did vile the loss, and I don't know

1480
01:10:54.119 --> 01:10:57.000
what happened with it. So it's like, why would an

1481
01:10:57.000 --> 01:10:59.640
A list person go on her show? Like I mean,

1482
01:10:59.680 --> 01:11:02.239
she would trouble getting guessed? Is my point is that

1483
01:11:02.279 --> 01:11:05.479
she would do these things, and it's like she she

1484
01:11:05.520 --> 01:11:07.560
really felt like people like Barry Diller would use their

1485
01:11:07.600 --> 01:11:10.279
personal connections to help get guests. But like I mean,

1486
01:11:10.760 --> 01:11:13.279
there were just so many complicated things that things that

1487
01:11:13.319 --> 01:11:18.239
were mismatched with running that show. But definitely the way

1488
01:11:18.279 --> 01:11:21.399
that she was perceived with guests. I always defend her.

1489
01:11:21.399 --> 01:11:24.560
When she was guest hosting for Johnny, she always, in

1490
01:11:24.600 --> 01:11:27.279
my opinion, with maybe one or two exceptions, made the

1491
01:11:27.319 --> 01:11:29.560
guests look good. She did not do the jokes at

1492
01:11:29.560 --> 01:11:33.840
people's expenses like people. I think people sometimes they get

1493
01:11:33.880 --> 01:11:36.840
this idea that she would make her guests uncomfortable like

1494
01:11:36.960 --> 01:11:39.880
Dave Letterman would sometimes. And she was very good at

1495
01:11:39.880 --> 01:11:44.039
making her guests look good with with a few exceptions

1496
01:11:45.439 --> 01:11:49.039
over there, but I thought she she overall she took

1497
01:11:49.119 --> 01:11:52.199
Johnny's note about making her guests look good. I thought

1498
01:11:52.239 --> 01:11:54.199
she did a good job when she was a guest host. Well,

1499
01:11:54.399 --> 01:11:56.640
and that and that aspect.

1500
01:11:56.399 --> 01:11:59.720
Well, anybody still listening to us clearly enjoys your company

1501
01:11:59.720 --> 01:12:04.239
as I do. The podcast Inside Late Night is back today.

1502
01:12:04.279 --> 01:12:05.800
And do you have a book coming out? Can I

1503
01:12:05.800 --> 01:12:07.520
pre order it? How do I get this book? What's

1504
01:12:07.520 --> 01:12:07.960
it called?

1505
01:12:08.359 --> 01:12:11.800
I heard it's called Love Johnny Carson. And you can

1506
01:12:11.920 --> 01:12:16.880
go to either Amazon, Barnes and Noble Books, a million Target,

1507
01:12:19.159 --> 01:12:21.920
there's Walmart. There's so many places, and people have been

1508
01:12:22.039 --> 01:12:24.720
asking me, and this is really nice that they want

1509
01:12:25.119 --> 01:12:27.680
if they want an autograph copy. There's a place called

1510
01:12:28.359 --> 01:12:31.560
a Story of Bookshop that's an astoria in Queens, New

1511
01:12:31.640 --> 01:12:34.800
York City. So a Story of Bookshop is pre ordering

1512
01:12:34.880 --> 01:12:40.000
for signed copies. So yeah, please make me happy and

1513
01:12:40.720 --> 01:12:44.600
pre order. And there's definitely stuff in this book that

1514
01:12:45.159 --> 01:12:48.359
it's primarily new stuff that people do not know. This

1515
01:12:48.439 --> 01:12:51.439
is not on my podcast, and I did my best.

1516
01:12:51.640 --> 01:12:55.359
It's one hundred and thirty thousand words roughly with then

1517
01:12:55.680 --> 01:12:58.359
I think it's like fifty pages of citation something like

1518
01:12:58.439 --> 01:13:00.520
that could be off a little bit, but I thought

1519
01:13:00.520 --> 01:13:04.840
it was important to cite everything. And yeah, we have

1520
01:13:05.560 --> 01:13:08.520
like stuff that when I was able to like use

1521
01:13:09.399 --> 01:13:12.800
like Jim McCauley, who was the head book comedy booker

1522
01:13:12.840 --> 01:13:15.279
on the Tonight Shopers stand ups from seventy seven until

1523
01:13:15.359 --> 01:13:18.520
Johnny retired. He wrote an unpublished book like a manuscript,

1524
01:13:18.520 --> 01:13:20.000
and I was able to use some of it, which

1525
01:13:20.399 --> 01:13:24.039
with permission. So yeah, there's a lot of stuff from

1526
01:13:24.319 --> 01:13:27.680
like that. I just blew my mind that I had

1527
01:13:27.680 --> 01:13:31.720
no idea just doing research reading McCauley's unpublished manuscript and

1528
01:13:31.760 --> 01:13:34.079
some other things. So all that stuff is there.

1529
01:13:34.319 --> 01:13:36.319
Weird bit. Were you able to get to Letterman?

1530
01:13:37.880 --> 01:13:40.239
Dave Letterman talked to me even though I worked on

1531
01:13:40.279 --> 01:13:43.079
his show for eleven months and fifteen days. No, not all.

1532
01:13:43.159 --> 01:13:46.520
Dave will not talk to me. I've tried so many times.

1533
01:13:47.880 --> 01:13:51.560
He you know, I think he just he does it

1534
01:13:51.600 --> 01:13:53.720
when he feels like he'll talk to somebody about race,

1535
01:13:53.720 --> 01:13:56.520
car driving or something. I don't think he likes talking

1536
01:13:56.520 --> 01:13:59.279
about his own comedy unless he has to, or about

1537
01:13:59.520 --> 01:14:02.520
maybe it's Johnny was such a special thing to him

1538
01:14:02.560 --> 01:14:05.439
that I think he did it for the PBS documentary

1539
01:14:06.199 --> 01:14:08.800
talked about Johnny. But I don't know if it would

1540
01:14:08.840 --> 01:14:10.880
just be too hard for him just to talk about

1541
01:14:10.880 --> 01:14:13.640
his guy that meant so much to him. But no,

1542
01:14:14.359 --> 01:14:17.199
I mean I tried so many times back on the

1543
01:14:17.239 --> 01:14:22.039
podcasting with this. I think he knows about it, but

1544
01:14:23.079 --> 01:14:25.319
and it's what it is. I mean, I had a

1545
01:14:25.359 --> 01:14:27.720
bunch of things in the book I did want. I

1546
01:14:27.840 --> 01:14:31.640
tried to get him to verify, but I feel like

1547
01:14:31.680 --> 01:14:34.439
my sources are good enough that I just they're in

1548
01:14:34.479 --> 01:14:37.319
the book and I just would have loved to talk

1549
01:14:37.399 --> 01:14:40.720
to him. Maybe he'll look at the book. But at

1550
01:14:40.760 --> 01:14:44.239
the end of the day, Dave, from the people I

1551
01:14:44.239 --> 01:14:46.359
talked to that knew him, some of them, he's just

1552
01:14:46.399 --> 01:14:50.319
a shy guy and he just doesn't feel comfortable around

1553
01:14:50.359 --> 01:14:52.319
people he doesn't know. I'm sure it's gotten a lot

1554
01:14:52.359 --> 01:14:55.439
better since he's left the show, but it's just what

1555
01:14:55.520 --> 01:14:59.000
it is. I would not want somebody to feel uncomfortable

1556
01:15:00.079 --> 01:15:03.239
interview in them. I mean I get it. Like I've

1557
01:15:03.239 --> 01:15:07.119
had like certain famous people that are just like I am,

1558
01:15:07.159 --> 01:15:09.279
uncomfortable doing interviews and I was like, Okay, then we

1559
01:15:09.319 --> 01:15:10.920
have nothing else to talk about it. I appreciate you

1560
01:15:10.920 --> 01:15:13.199
getting back to me. I don't want you're feeling comfortable.

1561
01:15:13.600 --> 01:15:17.560
So that's that's all I can do, is respect to know. Definitely,

1562
01:15:17.600 --> 01:15:19.520
there were people that took me five or six years,

1563
01:15:19.560 --> 01:15:22.640
like Diane Cammon or Angie Dickinson, where I just once

1564
01:15:22.680 --> 01:15:24.319
in a while would be like, you know, I'm still

1565
01:15:24.359 --> 01:15:26.199
doing this. I would love for you to consider it.

1566
01:15:26.239 --> 01:15:27.960
This is somebody I talked to you recently. Here's the

1567
01:15:28.000 --> 01:15:31.399
episode which you can listen to. And sometimes I am

1568
01:15:31.439 --> 01:15:34.840
in the game of, like you know, holding out and

1569
01:15:34.960 --> 01:15:37.720
checking in and you never know, and sometimes it takes

1570
01:15:37.720 --> 01:15:40.800
a little longer. So Love Dave to do Inside Late Night,

1571
01:15:40.920 --> 01:15:44.960
so who knows, but so far it has not happened

1572
01:15:45.560 --> 01:15:46.000
with him.

1573
01:15:46.239 --> 01:15:47.920
I'm going to stop asking you questions that we're going

1574
01:15:47.960 --> 01:15:49.039
to be here for four hours.

1575
01:15:49.039 --> 01:15:50.479
Mark now, this is fine.

1576
01:15:50.520 --> 01:15:53.840
His book is Love Johnny Carson. His podcast is Inside

1577
01:15:53.880 --> 01:15:56.399
Late Night. We should also plug latenighter dot com. I'm

1578
01:15:56.439 --> 01:15:59.279
on there daily, a great resource. Appreciate you, thank you

1579
01:15:59.279 --> 01:16:00.000
for your time today.

1580
01:16:00.119 --> 01:16:01.319
Yeah, it's nice to talk to you again.