March 30, 2025

Remembering Mitch Hedberg (with guest Jason Zinoman)

Remembering Mitch Hedberg (with guest Jason Zinoman)

John is joined by New York Times critic Jason Zinoman. They discuss Hedberg's unique comedy style, his legacy within the industry, and comparisons to other influential comedians such as Steven Wright and Andy Kaufman. The conversation also touches on...

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John is joined by New York Times critic Jason Zinoman. They discuss Hedberg's unique comedy style, his legacy within the industry, and comparisons to other influential comedians such as Steven Wright and Andy Kaufman. The conversation also touches on the potential use of AI in preserving Hedberg's work.

While Jason is here, they discuss John Mulaney, Bill Burr, and Conan O'Brien.

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WEBVTT

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Caalaroga Shark Media.

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Why there, Johnny macn no News Today. Today we celebrate

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the life of Mitchell Lee Hedburg. He passed away March thirtieth,

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two thousand and five, at age thirty seven. It's hard

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to believe it has been twenty years. Born in Minnesota,

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but finding his comedy voice in Florida clubs, Mitch Hedburg

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became a cult hero after his nineteen ninety six appearance

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on Letterman. If you've ever seen a broken escalator and

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thought temporarily stares, you're keeping the spirit of Mitch Hedburg alive.

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I know personally my daughter will offer me frozen bananas regularly,

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just to tee up the joke. If I walk past

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a particular sandwich chain, I will say, did you know

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that ducks eat for free at subway? If I'm at

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a soda machine and they're selling mister pib, I will

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take a picture of it and text it to friends

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and say, dude didn't get his degree. Mitch Heedburgh's deadpan delivery, sunglasses,

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hiding his stage fright, his unmistakable cadence made him instant

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recognizable in New York comedy clubs and on tours across

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the country. Mitch passed away twenty years ago in Livingston,

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New Jersey, not too far from where I live. Today,

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Let's celebrate the life and the career of Mitch Hebburg.

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My guest is Jason Zenneman from The New York Times.

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You guys know Jason, friend of the show and listener

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of the show. Jason is a critic at large for

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the Culture section of the New York Times. He writes

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a column about comedy. You'll hear me reference Jason probably

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three times a week on the podcast He is Fantastic.

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Two sections here. The first part is about Hebburg. Then

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while I had Jason, I wanted to discuss some other

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comedy things. We recorded this on Wednesdays, so we didn't

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talk about Taylor Tomlinson for example. That happened after we

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didn't talk about milleniy episode three. So I just want

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to put that in context. Anyway, here's friend of the show,

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Jason Zinneman. So what was your entry into Mitch Hepburg.

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Did you discover him?

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Later?

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Did discover him? Like ten years ago there was kind

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of a head burgess sans with people quoting him on Twitter.

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Where did you come into Mitch?

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This is embarrassing. Actually, I'm even I don't want it.

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You started with the tough question, which leads me to

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an embarrassing confession, But I'm gonna make it because I

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think it illuminates something critical about Mitch Hedburg, which is

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I just found an email where I was talking to

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a friend only a little before I got the job

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as the comedy critic. So this is like twenty ten

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something like that. So after he passed away where he

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mentioned Mitch Hepburgh and I said, oh, who's that? So

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that's embarrassing that I got this job without knowing who Mitch.

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I shouldn't you shouldn't hire me as they because I

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have now steeped in Mitch Heedburg. But I think what

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it also reveals, outside of my lack of qualifications, is

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that Mitch Hedburg was not that well known among non

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comedy obsessives, and there were many more popular comedians than

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Mitch Heedburg when he died. And it's also a great

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reminder that popularity isn't that important. The people who are

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really have a lot of followers and a really big deal.

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Right now, the media thinks we have to pay attention

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to all of them. We don't We Uh, there's Mitch

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Hedberg is more well known now than he was when

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he died. And the reason is the same reason where

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great art is always that is one of the metrics

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for success is how you age what happens over time.

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Like there are a lot of people who are very

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popular right now who no one's gonna care about after

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they die or you know, ten years after their work.

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A lot of them, right.

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And there's going to be some people who are, you know,

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not that popular, don't have Netflix specials, who are gonna

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be like Mitch Hedberg where it's going to be. Of course,

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you're gonna know whom Mitch Hedberg is. And I think

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he was a person who the comedy cognizante knew who

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he was. Clearly I should have, but I didn't. And

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but when he died, but he did. He wasn't like

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a massive star. And certainly, if you compare him to

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the person he's always compared to in terms of influence,

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Stephen Wright, he didn't have the mainstream breakthrough that Stephen

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Wright did. I think you can say they're similar to

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Andy Kaufman, who has gotten more and more famous after

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he's died. I think it's fair to say he's one

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of the most important and influential. I think Mitch Hedbury

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Andy Kaufman are two of the most influential comedians in

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modern times, and neither of them were you know, top

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five ted Echelon in there in popularity in their time.

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I think you're right. My audience will be sick of

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me telling the story. But real quick, I was at

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the car show, Jim brew was doing his radio show.

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Jim was a little frosty because the night before Jim

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had to do an extra hour because Mitch didn't show

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up for a show. I believe that was Mitch supposed

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to be opening for Jim Brewer in two thousand and five,

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which you know, if you say to somebody now like,

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oh yeah, Heedberg was opening for Jim Brewer, people like,

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what what are you talking about? But I think that's

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a spot where Mitch was at and you talking about

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maybe you weren't famili with him. I'm trying to remember.

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I think I have a false memory of meeting Mitch.

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I think Mitch was up and did Brewers show, and

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I can kind of sort of remember being in the back,

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but I don't have a clear memory of meeting the

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guy because back when I was doing serious comedy, people

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came up every day, So you know, I don't remember

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every time I met somebody I think I'm aligned with

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you there that Yeah, maybe he wasn't as famous as

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the legacy. So is this a James Dean thing? And

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I've talked about this with some other people. If is

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Hegberg still doing one liners twenty years later? Does that

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translate in the age of social media and feeding the Beast?

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And I got to go on TikTok, I know, and

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I'll stop talking in a second. I think in the

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Instagram era his stuff really popped ten years ago. You

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throw up a one miner, you make a cartoon of it, it

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was great. I'm not sure in the current Feed the

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Beast crowd work, Feed the Beast crowd work. I'm struggling

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a picture of Mitch Hedberg twenty five.

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I mean, maybe I'm naive, but I think he'd be

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doing well. I think he's just too talented, he's too

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o rige. It's interesting. Chat TV came out and there

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was a lot of discourse about can it replace comedy.

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One of the first comedians that AI nerds fed into

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AI models was Mitch Hedberg. And I was sent a

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lot of oh, look, hey, this AI can reproduce what

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Mitch Hedberg did, and I would listen to it and

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I would say, no, this can't. This is actually you

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think this is an argument fore I, And it's the opposite.

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He's that good, so I mean it's academic kudos. It

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is like James Dean to some degree. And then I

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think the legend of him grew because he died at

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what thirty seven? Anybody who dies in their thirties there's

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a certain glow about them that like a long career

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where you see them age and you know and us

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are fast. I mean Stephen Wright again is a good comparison.

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I think he's had a fascinating career, but we've sort

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of forgotten a little bit. He was someone who I

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was into as a kid, and it was radical when

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I first lost he was a radical figure and I

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don't think maybe people grasp that when they see him today.

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You know, Stephen again one of those comedians much like

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a Kinnison, much like a Dice. The first time you

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saw me, you're like, wow, this is different. And as

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I've been prepping for these interviews this week and thinking

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about right I don't want use the word verses, but

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Right and Heedburg. I feel like Right performs material to

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the audience, whereas Hebburg was in it with us, especially

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because he would do busted jokes and be like, you know, hey,

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I got to punch that here. That didn't work, and

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you know, it would just be like, okay, all right,

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yeah it didn't work. You're right, buddy, but I got

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your back, whereas I feel like Steven is just doing

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his thing on a stage, almost like a one man show.

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This is actually one of my favorite subjects, which is

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it's a real comedy nerd question, what's the difference between

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Stephen Wright and Mitch Hedberg? And I've asked a lot

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of comedians because of course they're, you know, very influential,

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both of them, and I looked them up a Bobcat golfway,

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as told he said, when you watch Mitch, you learned

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who he was, and you got you had some speculation

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over like who's this guy voted for? Was his childhood

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with Stephen Wright? He did not let you in. I

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think you're absolutely right, by the way about the performed

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material versus Jessel Nick, who was a huge, huge, right,

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you know, right was a huge influence on him. He

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said to me, I think they're compared to each other

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because they both told absurd, non secretars. Mitch Hedberg had

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the appearance of mentally fumbling around on stage looking for

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his jokes and figuring out as he went along. Right

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was deliberate, the sort of goes to what you're saying.

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He was serious, He was not fucking around. Mitch just

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walked on stage from a party. And of course he's

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not using it as an insult. He's saying that was

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the vibe he gave. Right just walked on stage from

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another planet. I think that I think that's a pretty

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good explanation. But maybe if you're just looking at it

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from a legacy standpoint, and this is gonna sound cold,

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but dying was a good career move because because.

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You look at young comics.

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I mean, there's a lot of comics I follow on

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substack who are often analyzing mulling over philosophizing about Mitch Hedberg.

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The one I want to shout out because I think

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it is a comic that your listener should also look

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up is Mike Kaplan, who has a great substack. He's

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a huge Hedburg fan and he recently had a substack

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about him and he said this. He said, his jokes

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are songs infinitely re listenable, where so much comedy requires

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surprise to have his desired effect. Hedberg's has somehow transcended that.

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That is fascinating, and I think he's right. You can

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listen to you know, an elevator can never break. It

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just turns into stairs, and even if you've heard it before,

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there's still a pleasure in hearing it again. They are

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more like songs, and that's very high praise, because once

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you take the surprise out of comedy, you take quite

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a bit out of it. I think, you know what

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Mike does his sub sact is then he goes on

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to analyze some jokes. It looks at the philosophy of them.

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They actually have a depth to them, especially in how

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they kind of mix. And this is in part I'm

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influenced by Mike's writing on this, like the ordinary and

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the metaphysical in a way that rewards sustained analysis and thinking.

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I never thought of that that it's it is like

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music that I don't mind listening to the stuff over

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and over and part of the production. I think it's

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strategic grow Locations is the one with the bass, which

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just gives the whole album a vibe and helps bring

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those one liners to life and that whole low key

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party vibe.

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Yep, I think that's true.

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You got me thinking too about you know what if

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Island And when you pointed out Mitch was thirty seven,

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You're trying to picture fifty seven year old Mitch Hedberg,

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you know, have the same hairstyle. It's like when you

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try and picture eighty year old John Lennon and if

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you know, maybe looking more like Larry David. It's just

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it's so hard. These people get fixed in your mind

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at a certain age.

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It's true.

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I mean, what's interesting right is and I don't think

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I would get too much argument about this. His is

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the kind of comedy that doesn't age in the sense

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that if you didn't like it in nineteen ninety eight,

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you're still not gonna like it. If you did like it,

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it still works now. It doesn't need a lot of context.

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It's often based on logic. It's based on playing with language,

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on the slipperiness of language. Often when people like every

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once in a while, I'll have somebody say like, oh,

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I have like a teenager's getting into comedy. What would

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you suggest in the list of people who I say,

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it's Mitch Heberg. Now, granted, maybe he'd evolve and he

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would become you know, he'd be talking about topical stuff,

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or maybe he would move in a personal direction or something.

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But my suspicion as he wouldn't.

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We'll never know.

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I'm hearing the base in my head and somebody going,

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I got aheaded to a single.

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Chat exactly exactly the amazing.

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I think one thing about Mitch that during the soul

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searching this week that has revealed itself is he's one

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comedian that appeals to all the camps, you know, the

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comedy seller people, the brick wall smoking cigarettes people, the

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la al d people, the blue collar guys. I think

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everybody liked and respected Mitch's comedy.

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Well, okay, let's I'm push back in that.

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So please please, I love this discussion.

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Go yes, I think you're right.

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But that's in part because he died in two thousand

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and five before not just comedy but the world fragmented.

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Would everyone still love him so much if he was

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still around and he was, you know, toring either taking

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a side in these various culture war battles that we

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all know of. You know, I don't know. I think

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what's significant about him is that he's at the head

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of an entire family tree of comedy that is incredibly

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legible to us today but wasn't not that long ago.

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And you know, it's taking a Taro, it's Sheng Wang,

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it's Todd Berry, it's even Hannibal, It'smitri Martin, this kind

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of dead pen one liner surrealists like, Now, that's the

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type of comedy. It's yes, he hung out with people

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as diverse as David Tel and Todd Berry.

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I think it deserves some credit. He has his work,

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and Mitch has shared some.

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Qualities, but I really think he helped invent a branch

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of esthetic comedy. And there's still people who now are

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coming up who are like, Okay, that's a legitimate I

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don't need to be weird la clown or New York

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club comic. There's this other option, and if you're good

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at it, people will respect you.

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And that's true.

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I think that gets overlooked in a lot of the

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culture war stuff, is that people there's club comics who

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think Chris Fleming is great, and there's alt comics who

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think Bill Burr is incredible if you're really good in fact,

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to be honest with you, not that this matters that much,

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but like I find that the alt people are easier

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to give up praise for someone who's totally different than

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them in the club, same for the club people, because

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it's less there's less competitive, right. It's the advantage of

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doing what we do is that we don't really have

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a dog in one of the fights. We can actually

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call us balls and strikes more with more fairness in

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my opinion. But so I think, you know, in the

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reason Mitch to take it full circle, the reason Mitch

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is sort of a safe harbor to praise is because

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he's on the other side of life where I think

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he both seems very modern, but he never got on

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the you know, he never became joined the social media

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madness that was to come.

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So in the age of AI, there's a YouTube page

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almost Beatle songs. The other day they released this George

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Harrison thing that they brought to life, pulling stems from

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different things. Absolutely incredible. So we've got enough audio of Mitch,

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and I know for a fact there at least was

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a notebook of Hedberg's material that he never got to perform.

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Lynn Shawcroft showed me the notebook. I saw it, if

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I'm remembering correctly, and you know, I don't want to

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go all Brian Williams here, but I think at Sirius

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we did a special where some comedians performed some of

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those jokes one time. I think that happened. But anyway,

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the notebook exists and we have AI. Would you want

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to hear Ai Hedburg deliver those or.

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No, oh boy, this is a George Carlin estate. Would

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not be for this, That's for sure, that's true. That's

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I got to say. I'm not.

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00:15:35.639 --> 00:15:38.519
But it's his material. So the Carlon Flink wasn't Carlin's material.

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This is Hegberg's material. So I'll give you an example

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on Netflix, the Churchhill documentary. I thought was amazing because

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they used Churchill's books and had Ai Churchhill voice it,

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and I thought it really worked well. You still have

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the issue of timing performing the words of Mitch Hebburg

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is that the devil.

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It's a great question, and we're really struggling with these issues,

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and it turns out that there's so much more AI

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in our culture that we consume that we think it is.

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We found this out with the Academy Awards recently. It

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turns out the Bob Dylan movies got AI, and they

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all got in the idea of taking these regis stands

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of that AI is sort of moot. But I guess

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if we're to take Mike Kaplan's point, his jokes are

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like songs, I think I'd be fine for it as

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00:16:19.440 --> 00:16:22.360
long as it's labeled as such, and so it's like

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a little bit like covers, and why not listen to it.

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I do think that there is a human element to

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delivery and to pace and to how he would that.

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I'm open to AI having a positive impact on culture,

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but I'm more on the skeptical side among friends when

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we talk about this stuff. I have friends who are

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slowly using AI in ways that are not necessary but

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make their work a little bit easier. I'm a hardliner

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except where there are the few exceptions. But I feel like,

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unless you really need to use it, slippery slope.

329
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And I think the question would be who's putting it together?

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When it's Paul mccurtney saying I think John might have

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done this, George might have done that. That's one thing.

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If it's some rando, that's a whole other thing entirely.

333
00:17:04.279 --> 00:17:05.920
Last question on Hegberg that I want to ask you

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00:17:05.920 --> 00:17:09.519
about a few other things is do you think he

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00:17:09.720 --> 00:17:12.000
is more popular than he was ten years ago? I'm

336
00:17:12.039 --> 00:17:13.799
not talking about twenty years ago. I feel like ten

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years ago he was in the zeitgeisten on the internet,

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and maybe we had better Twitter back then than we

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00:17:19.279 --> 00:17:23.839
have now. I feel like he is starting to become

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00:17:23.880 --> 00:17:26.480
a comedian of the past. A name that keeps popping

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00:17:26.480 --> 00:17:28.880
to my mind this week is Richard Jenny, who was

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huge and nobody ever, ever, ever says the words Richard

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and Jenny in a sentence anymore. Are we starting to

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get away from Hebburg or is there more of a

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legacy here?

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I think you have a good point that Twitter helped him,

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because he really was perfect for Twitter. But Twitter now

348
00:17:45.079 --> 00:17:48.279
is sort of a ghost town for comedy at least,

349
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so maybe he's plateaued. But I don't think he's not

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00:17:52.440 --> 00:17:54.960
like Richard Jenny. As I said, this Mike Kaplan thing

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was just like a week ago, and I think Matt

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Ruby had something on a substack about so he's still

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cited and talked about the analog and I'm working on

354
00:18:05.400 --> 00:18:07.279
a piece right now. But Andy Coller is a quick

355
00:18:07.279 --> 00:18:09.759
thing on Andy Kaufman, and I don't know what you

356
00:18:09.799 --> 00:18:14.240
think Andy Kaufman. I think Andy Coffin's bigger now than

357
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he ever has been.

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The Man on the Moon movie surely helped him. There

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00:18:18.920 --> 00:18:21.640
was that renaissance there. I think the Kaufman Awards definitely

360
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helped when that was. That's a little more visible than

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00:18:24.480 --> 00:18:26.559
it is now, you know, I remember the earlier as

362
00:18:26.599 --> 00:18:28.680
Kristin Shawl for example, being one of the winners of that.

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00:18:29.400 --> 00:18:32.839
But yeah, the Kaufman doc coming back. Depending on what

364
00:18:32.880 --> 00:18:35.240
Bob's Muda was doing on any particular day, there'd be

365
00:18:35.279 --> 00:18:37.400
a lot of Andy or no Andy at all. But

366
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I feel like Kaufman's got a legacy.

367
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Sure, I think this Kaufman doc is very good, and

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I think you could point to figures like Sasha Baron Cohen,

369
00:18:45.839 --> 00:18:50.480
Nathan Fielder, the whole sort of trolling aesthetic, the sort

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of blurring of lines between real and fake. It feels

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00:18:53.119 --> 00:18:55.799
like Andy Kaufman really anticipated a lot of what's in

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the culture now in a way that gets him talked about,

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which was first of all, I think that Stephen Wright

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00:19:03.200 --> 00:19:07.400
did get there before Mitch, which is relevant. I remember

375
00:19:07.440 --> 00:19:10.960
asking that Stephen right about Edburg and he wasn't very expansive,

376
00:19:10.960 --> 00:19:12.440
but he did say something like, it's nice that I

377
00:19:12.519 --> 00:19:14.200
was influencer. You know, he made it clear that he

378
00:19:14.240 --> 00:19:17.880
was there before, and he's not wrong. He's not wrong.

379
00:19:18.279 --> 00:19:22.119
So yeah, maybe his legacy is not as fixed, but

380
00:19:22.200 --> 00:19:23.880
I still think he's in the cannon.

381
00:19:24.880 --> 00:19:27.559
Anytime I look at a top ex comedians of whatever

382
00:19:27.599 --> 00:19:30.519
time period, you know, he's clearly up there. We could

383
00:19:30.559 --> 00:19:32.920
spend a year debating what such a list would look like,

384
00:19:33.039 --> 00:19:34.319
but he's definitely way up there.

385
00:19:34.480 --> 00:19:35.319
Yeah, for sure.

386
00:19:35.839 --> 00:19:37.480
I would take a quick break, come back, and I

387
00:19:37.559 --> 00:19:40.119
want to talk to Jason about some other things. So

388
00:19:40.160 --> 00:19:43.119
I believe you were the Conan Marktwain Awards.

389
00:19:43.480 --> 00:19:46.400
Like I was a snuck in was the room. They

390
00:19:46.440 --> 00:19:48.000
didn't give me a ticket, so I had to go

391
00:19:48.039 --> 00:19:52.079
as a plus one. They rejected my offer for a ticket.

392
00:19:52.119 --> 00:19:53.920
I don't know, it's crazy. I thought it was a

393
00:19:53.920 --> 00:19:54.519
little crazy.

394
00:19:55.640 --> 00:19:57.720
Sorry, my brain just fried. It's not like you're some

395
00:19:57.799 --> 00:20:00.279
dude in a basement doing some dopey podcast. It's the

396
00:20:00.279 --> 00:20:01.200
New York Times.

397
00:20:01.319 --> 00:20:03.920
Well, they actually gave me this is probably two inside

398
00:20:03.960 --> 00:20:06.119
baseball to care about. But they actually gave it to

399
00:20:06.160 --> 00:20:08.799
a reporter from the Times, and they said they couldn't

400
00:20:08.799 --> 00:20:11.640
give it to me because of they gave it to her,

401
00:20:11.960 --> 00:20:13.640
but they gave her two tickets, so we were like,

402
00:20:13.640 --> 00:20:14.839
all right, I'll just go with her.

403
00:20:15.119 --> 00:20:15.920
All right, that's good.

404
00:20:16.440 --> 00:20:17.799
So it turned out to be fine.

405
00:20:17.839 --> 00:20:20.240
No one gave me any hassle where they were actually like,

406
00:20:20.359 --> 00:20:23.000
no yonder pouches. They couldn't have been friendlier.

407
00:20:23.599 --> 00:20:25.240
It's funny to bring up the under pouches because I

408
00:20:25.279 --> 00:20:28.240
haven't seen really anything leak. But I guess it was

409
00:20:28.279 --> 00:20:31.519
a professional crowd right industry and the New York Times.

410
00:20:31.519 --> 00:20:33.559
You guys aren't going to start bootlegging things on your phones.

411
00:20:34.799 --> 00:20:35.240
They could have.

412
00:20:35.319 --> 00:20:38.160
It was actually I think it was mostly Kennedy Center

413
00:20:38.319 --> 00:20:41.000
people and subscribers, but the whole comedy industry was there.

414
00:20:41.039 --> 00:20:43.440
I mean, it was actually a great show. I gotta

415
00:20:43.480 --> 00:20:47.440
say it was. I'll be really interested to see what

416
00:20:47.559 --> 00:20:51.759
they cut out. But you know, Conan, for one thing

417
00:20:52.599 --> 00:20:55.920
inspires a lot of love and loyalty, and then people

418
00:20:55.960 --> 00:20:58.559
brought their a game. So it was probably the best

419
00:20:58.640 --> 00:21:01.680
comedy lineup I'd seen this year, and it was tight.

420
00:21:01.920 --> 00:21:03.519
I mean, I don't know what they're going to cut

421
00:21:04.200 --> 00:21:06.079
on top of the fact that there's the whole Trump

422
00:21:06.119 --> 00:21:07.279
and politics of it all, but there.

423
00:21:07.279 --> 00:21:08.319
Was a lot of comedy nerds.

424
00:21:08.400 --> 00:21:11.119
Jay Leno got hit almost as bad as Trump, and

425
00:21:11.200 --> 00:21:13.720
that maybe worse. There was one point when I think

426
00:21:13.720 --> 00:21:17.920
it was Kumeo had this fake ted talk where he

427
00:21:18.119 --> 00:21:19.960
pointed out that he had a bunch of people on the.

428
00:21:19.880 --> 00:21:21.640
Cover of Time and he had Hitler.

429
00:21:22.880 --> 00:21:26.119
Stalin caused me, these are like the covers of Time,

430
00:21:26.440 --> 00:21:28.960
and then he had Jay Leno jay Leno cover and

431
00:21:28.960 --> 00:21:31.240
I was like, that's a hard one. But so there

432
00:21:31.279 --> 00:21:33.799
was that there was a lot there for comedy nerds

433
00:21:33.880 --> 00:21:35.720
to chew on poor Jay.

434
00:21:35.839 --> 00:21:38.519
I mean there was a time circa nineteen eighty two

435
00:21:38.680 --> 00:21:41.279
eighty three He's coming out in a leather jacket and

436
00:21:41.319 --> 00:21:43.680
he was fairly edgy, and a frequent letterman guest that

437
00:21:44.279 --> 00:21:46.720
Jay is long gone, at least in the eyes of

438
00:21:46.799 --> 00:21:47.319
his peers.

439
00:21:48.519 --> 00:21:49.920
It's true. I am to be fair.

440
00:21:49.960 --> 00:21:52.480
Conan did not say a word about him, but I

441
00:21:52.519 --> 00:21:57.400
think his friends knew that he would enjoy going back

442
00:21:57.440 --> 00:21:59.880
over some of those late night worse from another period.

443
00:22:00.599 --> 00:22:03.960
It's crazy that post late night talk show where at

444
00:22:04.000 --> 00:22:06.119
Pete Conan the Oscar is obviously a great look for

445
00:22:06.200 --> 00:22:08.440
him the podcast, but he's more popular than ever and

446
00:22:08.480 --> 00:22:09.480
he's not on late night.

447
00:22:10.200 --> 00:22:12.680
It's an increase. He's that an incredible year. I feel

448
00:22:13.039 --> 00:22:16.599
it's funny I did a big profile of him before this.

449
00:22:16.759 --> 00:22:18.960
I feel my timing was very good. I was lucky

450
00:22:19.079 --> 00:22:22.079
because then he got the oscars in the Twain and

451
00:22:23.880 --> 00:22:27.200
I felt like he's he is having this moment, and

452
00:22:27.480 --> 00:22:31.559
I thought he really rose to the occasion. His speech was,

453
00:22:32.279 --> 00:22:34.240
you know, he had this tough call because he's not

454
00:22:34.240 --> 00:22:36.799
a political comedian. In fact, he told me he thinks

455
00:22:36.799 --> 00:22:40.200
Trump's bad for comedy. Doing Trump jokes is not his instinct.

456
00:22:40.319 --> 00:22:43.359
That comedy is not going to make social change. If anything,

457
00:22:43.400 --> 00:22:46.960
he will have a backlash. And yet he's put in

458
00:22:47.000 --> 00:22:51.880
this situation. The Kennedy Center is now in an unprecedented move.

459
00:22:51.960 --> 00:22:55.079
The President has made himself the chairman of the Kennedy

460
00:22:55.160 --> 00:22:57.680
Center and gotten rid of the Democrats on the board.

461
00:22:57.799 --> 00:23:02.519
Seems sort of apolitical. Is now early political. Not mentioning it,

462
00:23:02.680 --> 00:23:05.920
people boycotting it would itself be a political gesture. So

463
00:23:06.319 --> 00:23:11.319
how do you stay true to your principles? While responding

464
00:23:11.359 --> 00:23:14.720
to the moment a very tricky problem that I think

465
00:23:14.759 --> 00:23:18.480
he thread beautifully and ultimately made a very political speech,

466
00:23:18.519 --> 00:23:24.400
But it was all through this esthetic appreciation of Mark Twain, which.

467
00:23:24.240 --> 00:23:25.519
Is consistent with who he is.

468
00:23:25.880 --> 00:23:29.079
He is, like, you know, he's a Harvard nerd, you know,

469
00:23:29.079 --> 00:23:32.839
a comedy nerd who really has read Mark Twain and

470
00:23:33.440 --> 00:23:38.200
chapter and verse that has opinions on it. And you know,

471
00:23:38.440 --> 00:23:42.880
it was an s seats speech but with a real

472
00:23:42.960 --> 00:23:44.720
hardcore political core.

473
00:23:44.839 --> 00:23:45.799
And then it ended.

474
00:23:46.039 --> 00:23:48.240
I didn't mention this in my piece, but the funniest

475
00:23:48.279 --> 00:23:50.839
bit I think was Will Forte at the end came

476
00:23:50.839 --> 00:23:54.279
out as Mark Twain and then roasted all the other

477
00:23:54.440 --> 00:23:59.039
previous Mark Twain winners. He said that Adam Sandler can't read.

478
00:23:59.400 --> 00:24:03.519
He said that all and you know written by Conan obviously,

479
00:24:03.640 --> 00:24:06.720
or written by Conan and Will and then end it

480
00:24:06.759 --> 00:24:09.960
with this kind of really crazy, silly, surreal vignette with

481
00:24:10.039 --> 00:24:14.839
all these multiple Mark Twain's almost like the Slim Shady video.

482
00:24:15.119 --> 00:24:15.920
That was a great show.

483
00:24:16.440 --> 00:24:18.359
What a great run for a guy that you know,

484
00:24:18.400 --> 00:24:20.680
went from Who's that? To is this late night show

485
00:24:20.799 --> 00:24:23.359
going to make it to Thursday? To being at the

486
00:24:23.359 --> 00:24:25.759
top of the game. Now, I'll switching gears on late

487
00:24:25.839 --> 00:24:28.920
night and I'll go first. We're recording this on Wednesday,

488
00:24:28.960 --> 00:24:31.960
So unless you've got a secret time machine, we've only

489
00:24:31.960 --> 00:24:35.160
seen two episodes of Mulaney. I think it's not working.

490
00:24:35.359 --> 00:24:38.119
And as somebody who's been in broadcasting for thirty years,

491
00:24:38.559 --> 00:24:40.319
I get what they're trying to do. I get that

492
00:24:40.359 --> 00:24:42.920
they're trying to do the chaos, but as a producer,

493
00:24:43.319 --> 00:24:45.160
they got to put a format on it. It's too

494
00:24:45.160 --> 00:24:47.799
all over the place, and the caller segment has to go.

495
00:24:48.200 --> 00:24:53.480
My prejudice is completely in favor of what they're trying

496
00:24:53.519 --> 00:24:57.119
to do, right. I like chaos, I like experimental, I

497
00:24:57.240 --> 00:25:02.319
like original Letterman, I like Chris and it's I think

498
00:25:02.599 --> 00:25:05.119
I like all the riffs. I like the ambition, I

499
00:25:05.160 --> 00:25:07.240
like the aims. So I tend to sort of grate

500
00:25:07.279 --> 00:25:09.319
in a curve. But then, for instance, if I was

501
00:25:09.359 --> 00:25:15.039
to rank the acts at the Conan Mark Twain Award,

502
00:25:15.079 --> 00:25:18.160
and there's some heavy hitters on here, Milany is either

503
00:25:18.200 --> 00:25:21.079
one or two. It's a reminder of how damn good

504
00:25:21.160 --> 00:25:24.119
he can be. He was unbelievable in the show, and

505
00:25:24.119 --> 00:25:27.160
you're like, that reminds you what he does well, and

506
00:25:27.200 --> 00:25:28.759
you watch him on that talk show and you're like,

507
00:25:29.559 --> 00:25:32.799
he looks like he's flailing half the time. So you're right,

508
00:25:32.880 --> 00:25:35.880
the talk show thing isn't quite working, and you've got

509
00:25:35.920 --> 00:25:38.400
all this talent. I hope, you know, if I'm honest.

510
00:25:39.480 --> 00:25:42.559
The original run of it, I was mixed on it too.

511
00:25:42.640 --> 00:25:45.119
I felt like there was a lot of things that

512
00:25:45.200 --> 00:25:47.960
didn't work. But let me also just defend him for

513
00:25:47.960 --> 00:25:50.440
a second and say, there wasn't a good talk show

514
00:25:50.519 --> 00:25:53.960
in history that worked right off the bat Conan took,

515
00:25:54.160 --> 00:25:56.759
you know, a year to get his legs. Letterman took

516
00:25:56.799 --> 00:26:01.880
a while, So I think we should good give credit

517
00:26:02.000 --> 00:26:05.599
to people who are taking ambitious moves and who are

518
00:26:05.640 --> 00:26:09.319
messing with the form. And he's no questions he's doing that.

519
00:26:09.960 --> 00:26:13.000
I'd rather see someone Fay. Look, I'd like to see

520
00:26:13.039 --> 00:26:17.920
Magic Johnson or talk show. It's like a huge disaster

521
00:26:18.119 --> 00:26:22.480
is way more fun than another mediocre conventional talk show.

522
00:26:23.160 --> 00:26:25.200
Like the Jerry Lewis Talk Show. You ever watched clips

523
00:26:25.200 --> 00:26:27.960
of that one? That's painful. But I think you're right.

524
00:26:28.000 --> 00:26:31.039
I think as an executive, you know, I'm sending mullany

525
00:26:31.119 --> 00:26:33.680
notes on the equivalent of Wednesday, So maybe maybe let

526
00:26:33.720 --> 00:26:35.240
him do five shows before I get in there.

527
00:26:35.400 --> 00:26:37.440
I mean, well, one thing I'll say is that I

528
00:26:37.480 --> 00:26:41.400
saw a funny tweet from or the instagram of Chris

529
00:26:41.480 --> 00:26:45.039
Chris Gethard, who is again wants this to succeed, and

530
00:26:45.079 --> 00:26:47.440
he said something about like you got to get a

531
00:26:47.480 --> 00:26:51.200
new mic or something for the or let me help

532
00:26:51.240 --> 00:26:53.640
you with the sound design for the call in or something.

533
00:26:53.960 --> 00:26:56.519
So even people who are really rooting for this can

534
00:26:56.559 --> 00:26:59.519
see that like it could be, it could be a

535
00:26:59.559 --> 00:27:00.519
little more polished.

536
00:27:01.359 --> 00:27:03.359
Can you help me sort my feelings with Bill Burr?

537
00:27:03.359 --> 00:27:05.000
And I don't even know what I want from you.

538
00:27:05.160 --> 00:27:08.279
I'm not on the soapbox with Bill Burr's going woke

539
00:27:08.319 --> 00:27:10.440
and I used to look at it that's not at

540
00:27:10.480 --> 00:27:14.359
all how I feel. However, maybe Bill is over exposed

541
00:27:14.440 --> 00:27:17.799
right now. I didn't love the special, and now every

542
00:27:17.839 --> 00:27:20.440
time I see Bill Burr appeared in the media, I'm

543
00:27:20.519 --> 00:27:22.480
kind of making what I call crinkly face and be like,

544
00:27:23.039 --> 00:27:24.480
I don't know if I need a bird time out.

545
00:27:24.519 --> 00:27:26.160
I don't even know what I'm asking you right now,

546
00:27:26.200 --> 00:27:29.079
But where are you in the Burr averse?

547
00:27:29.599 --> 00:27:32.319
I've heard you as I'm a religious listener of this

548
00:27:32.400 --> 00:27:34.480
podcast and I've heard you. I'm not on the same

549
00:27:34.480 --> 00:27:37.079
page with you, and I would just remind you that

550
00:27:37.839 --> 00:27:40.920
there are most people don't know who Bill Burr is, right,

551
00:27:41.000 --> 00:27:43.160
Oh yeah, see, I just heard a piece on him.

552
00:27:43.480 --> 00:27:45.640
It was interesting to me how many people is The

553
00:27:45.640 --> 00:27:49.279
New York Times I had to like introduce who Bill

554
00:27:49.319 --> 00:27:53.480
Burr is and why he's important and so while on

555
00:27:53.480 --> 00:27:56.839
one level, yes, it seems like he's overexposed, he's everywhere,

556
00:27:57.319 --> 00:27:59.680
but to a lot of people, this is their introduction

557
00:27:59.680 --> 00:28:01.720
to him. And I know that you agree that he

558
00:28:01.799 --> 00:28:05.880
is great at what he does. And look, I think

559
00:28:05.920 --> 00:28:09.400
his stuff on Elon who else is saying that?

560
00:28:10.039 --> 00:28:11.480
Johnny? I mean, who else?

561
00:28:11.880 --> 00:28:18.920
How can comedians of all people be quiet about this? Ridiculous? Like,

562
00:28:19.200 --> 00:28:22.119
you know, how can they not be tearing this guy

563
00:28:22.160 --> 00:28:26.119
to shreds? Right? Like Bill Burr is actually doing what

564
00:28:26.440 --> 00:28:28.440
so many younger comics should be doing. I'm not even

565
00:28:28.480 --> 00:28:33.200
talking about Trump. I'm talking about Elon Musk and billionaires, right,

566
00:28:33.680 --> 00:28:36.559
like attacking from this kind of blue collar position. Or

567
00:28:36.640 --> 00:28:39.039
to watch him on Bill Maher, you know, or watch

568
00:28:39.119 --> 00:28:41.799
him on Jimmy Kimmel beither kind of free leagion or

569
00:28:41.839 --> 00:28:43.759
as I said, I did a piece on him, which

570
00:28:44.079 --> 00:28:47.559
I watched him in rehearsal going out the director. He

571
00:28:47.680 --> 00:28:50.039
think he's being very true to his nature in that

572
00:28:50.119 --> 00:28:53.759
he's not picking me any side, going after whoever's in

573
00:28:53.759 --> 00:28:56.799
front of him. Is the new Special his best special ever? No,

574
00:28:56.880 --> 00:28:58.640
I don't think it is. I think it's pretty much

575
00:28:58.680 --> 00:29:00.279
like it. But if you like what he does, I

576
00:29:00.319 --> 00:29:04.279
think there's stuff there like. But like, for instance, my

577
00:29:04.400 --> 00:29:07.240
parents who have never that was their first special, they

578
00:29:07.240 --> 00:29:07.839
thought it was great.

579
00:29:09.039 --> 00:29:10.839
I think you just helped me. You know what happened?

580
00:29:11.359 --> 00:29:13.200
The indie band I like is playing stadiums?

581
00:29:13.680 --> 00:29:17.160
Yes? Now, are you gonna see any the Ross?

582
00:29:18.359 --> 00:29:18.440
No?

583
00:29:18.599 --> 00:29:21.160
I would like to, but I haven't done anything about it.

584
00:29:21.200 --> 00:29:24.960
That often happens with Broadway and me. It took back

585
00:29:25.000 --> 00:29:27.880
to the future threat closing down for me to go, oh,

586
00:29:27.880 --> 00:29:29.759
we got to go. And my daughter's a theater kid

587
00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:32.599
and knows how to get tickets to things, so I

588
00:29:32.599 --> 00:29:34.480
should probably do something about it. Have you seen it?

589
00:29:34.519 --> 00:29:34.839
Is it good?

590
00:29:34.920 --> 00:29:35.759
I'm going on Tuesday.

591
00:29:35.799 --> 00:29:37.759
I saw a little bit in rehearsal and he is

592
00:29:37.839 --> 00:29:42.039
perfectly cast yep, and he can obviously do wonders with

593
00:29:42.079 --> 00:29:44.519
the language, and so I can't wait.

594
00:29:44.559 --> 00:29:45.960
I mean, it's a killer cast.

595
00:29:47.119 --> 00:29:49.039
It's one of my When I was a kid, it

596
00:29:49.079 --> 00:29:51.160
was one of my favorite plays, and so I'm excited

597
00:29:51.200 --> 00:29:52.599
to see him do it well.

598
00:29:52.640 --> 00:29:54.559
I appreciate you coming on today, as we remember in

599
00:29:54.559 --> 00:29:56.200
Mitch Heedberg, and always fun to talk to you about

600
00:29:56.200 --> 00:29:58.079
all things comedy, nopun.

601
00:29:57.920 --> 00:30:00.000
Great, always great being here. Keep up the good work.

602
00:30:00.200 --> 00:30:04.160
Thank you Jason for popping on today. I'm not this good.

603
00:30:04.319 --> 00:30:07.319
I used AI to help me shape some of the

604
00:30:07.319 --> 00:30:10.960
words about Hebburg, and the AI nailed it here. Mitch

605
00:30:11.000 --> 00:30:13.880
Hedburg used to make us laugh. He still does, but

606
00:30:13.920 --> 00:30:16.200
he used it too, all right, See tomorrow