Talking Inside Late Night with Mark Malkoff

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Callaroga Shark Media. I have quite
the treat for you today. It was

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quite the treat for me. Mark
Malkoff is my guest. Mark is the

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host of the Inside Late Night podcast. It's tied to the Late Night or

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website that I'm a big fan of. He also used to host the Carson

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Podcast all about Johnny Carson. I
was a listener to that one, and

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when I saw Mark had this new
podcast, I reached out to him.

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I was like, hey, man, will you give me some time?

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I asked him for half an hour. We talked for an hour here,

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and then afterwards I think we talked
for another ten minutes. I loved this

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conversation. I hope you enjoy it
as much as I do. Again.

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Inside Late Night is Mark's podcast.
It is fantastic. The website is Late

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Night Or. Some of the guests
he's had so far, Robert Smigel,

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who is fantastic. Spike Ferenston,
who you probably don't know his name,

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but he's been in the Seinfeld Camp. His name's come up a little bit

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recently with the pop Tarts movie.
The official Description. Mark Malcoff, host

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of the Johnny Carson Dean Podcast,
The Carson Podcast, explores late night television

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past and present. Again, to
be clear, this is a new podcast.

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The Carson Podcast, as we talked
about, went almost four hundred episodes.

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This is a new podcast that talks
about SNL, Letterman, Conan,

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and Moore, presented by Latenighter dot
Com. Guests will include people who appeared

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on those shows, cast members,
writers, staff, and crew. Yes,

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so far have been Rachel Dratch,
Robert Smigel, who's fantastic, and

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Spike Ferinston. And he talked about
a bunch of big guests that they've got

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coming up. Here is my conversation
with Mark Malkoff. You don't seem old

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enough to be a Carson fan.
I won't ask you how old you are,

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but I'll go first. I'm fifty
four and Carson was the thing I

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watched as a killed time until Letterman
came on. As time went on,

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I got more into Johnny and we
can talk about that. But why are

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you such a Carson fan? You
know, I was a fan of the

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genre, but definitely Carson was this
guy that just fascinated me in terms of

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his longevity, in terms of his
likability, that he could, you know,

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talk to the A listers like Audrey
Heppern and even though he got very

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nervous with her and Jimmy Stewart and
Hope and then be talking to kids,

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and then he's with animals and then
civilians, which were people just you know

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that had never even a lot of
them out of their hometown and never been

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on an airplane, and just he
was able just to be likable and make

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people feel comfortable. And I think
that that's why his success was. He

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just played to Middle America, he
played to the cities, and I in

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terms of a host, in terms
of his skill set as a listener,

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I don't think anybody has come remotely
close. There's a lot of great hosts

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and things. But I was just
always fascinated by him, and then I

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would hear that he was this other
guy, and I just as growing up

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as a kid, I just was
really fascinated by what he might have been

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off camera versus on camera. And
then I would watch it as a kid

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with I mean, I don't know, six seven with my dad and he

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would tell me these interviews were actually
kind of screw a little bit, and

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it baffled me. I just couldn't
believe. I thought this was all just

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you know them talking back and forth. Famous people are always witty, and

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I just was wondering, how do
you get a job like that to be

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the pre said that somebody would pre
interview it. Just all these things what

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went on behind the show. And
I've always just been into him. But

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I think his stuff a lot of
it still holds up. You know,

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he's been off the air, what
now thirty two years. It's crazy that

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it's thirty two years. I have
Upstairs. I stole the title from it

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was the TV Guide cover. I
have a VHS that I labeled Johnny's Last

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Jam, which was what the TV
Guide is, Show me too, I've

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got Johnny's Last Show. In Jay's
first show with the Purple Show, Yeah,

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I don't know I'm going to do
it, but it's upstairs. Yeah,

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the purple set with all the curtains
opening in the mentage, and that

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was live. Jay did the first
two weeks live, which was pretty unheard

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of for late night. It still
is. But yeah, that was an

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interesting transition to say the latest.
That whole weird move of not acknowledging that

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somebody else hosted the show last week. Yeah, it stemmed from Helen Kushnik.

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It was Jay's producer. Jay had
it was a very unhealthy relationship,

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and you know, he basically deferred
to her and she I don't want to

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say she was a bully to him, but it just was not a healthy

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relationship. And Jay's a very nice
man, and she was doing all these

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things behind the scenes that Jay supposedly
didn't know about it, and I probably

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I believe it's that it's true.
And one of the things was is that,

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you know, Bob right at NBC, the President's like I went Jaya

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to thank Johnny and Kushnik absolutely not, and she was just playing as Bob

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Wright I think said she was always
held him overplaying her cards and it led

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to her demise. But it would
have just been the most easy, simple

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thing for him to mention Johnny.
Yeah, and especially Jay had been doing

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Mondays, so it's not like,
you know, somebody dropped in out of

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space and started hosting the Tonight Show. There was Clan's constant. Carson was

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baffled by the whole thing, just
because you know, Leno would have never

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been able to do the permanent guest
host if it wasn't for Carson. They

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were always, you know, on
good terms. I mean, definitely,

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Johnny privately wanted Dave to take over
the Tonight's show, but in terms of

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Carson Productions, Johnny on the show, Jay was guest hosting for Scale.

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He was getting paid is less as
you possibly and Leno was so smart about

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it because Leno knew that his club
dates, he could play Vegas in all

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these places and make so much more
more money, and just thinking like,

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you know, I got all these
these behind me, these guest hosts,

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which you think two hundred or more
times that he would have a better running

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to get the Tonight Show. I
mean, everything was very calculated with him,

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and uh, it just got to
the point where there was just so

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much stuff with Helen and the way
that some of the people at the Tonight

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Show and including Branford and Marcellus denies
it, but he said some stuff about

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Doc and the band apparently on the
Today Show about not being hip and they

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were going to bring this back.
So Doc quit and the band were very

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very upset with that, and it
just kept it kept escalating. But yeah,

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Carter covered it, but Helen Plant
did a false story and the New

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York Post about NBC one in Johnny
out and Johnny knew right away it was

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Helen, and it was proven it
was Helen, and there was just all

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this stuff that was completely unnecessary behind
the scenes. It's crazy that it's thirty

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years already worth three or four hosts
later, depending on how you want to

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count. You know, as I
was thinking this morning getting ready to speak

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with you, I was doing some
self analysis, and if you had asked

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me when I woke up over breakfast, I would have said, yeah,

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I'm a huge late night fan.
I definitely talk about it all the time

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on the podcast. And then I
realized I really haven't watched it regularly since

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maybe year two of CBS Letterman.
So I'm exposing myself here that you know,

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that's a good twenty seven eight years
ago, But yet I love the

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genre. I just maybe it's just
time has changed. I was a huge

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Letterman fan, and boy if Dave
ever moved from twelve thirty to eleven thirty,

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and I didn't have to stay up
till one thirty in the morning to

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watch him. I would watch this
thing every night. And I did that

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for like a year or two,
and then I don't know if I hit

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my mid twenties or what happened.
I just kind of fell out of the

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habit, but I do love it. I think Dave the definitelyands CBS disappointment

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television for a generation. The NBC
show still holds up. It was just

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a brilliantly conceived show and to do
something that had never really been done and

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influenced so many comedy I think for
the first maybe two or three years,

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Dave was putting in maximum effort and
then he just pulled back and it was

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just so obvious. I know he
was tired, he was exhausted. I

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get that, and the show just
changed and it was not the same thing.

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And then over time Dave developed more
to be known as an interviewer and

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just kind of like, you know, having people on he never would have

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had on, like a maybe political
people, and you know, putting his

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political opinion in a little bit,
and it just completely became this other thing.

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But Dave was such an amazing broadcaster
that people just followed him no matter

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what he did. But yeah,
once the show shifted and he stopped going

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to rehearsal, and even before that
he stopped doing pre tapes, it just

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became a different thing. And I
knew he couldn't do remotes anymore because he

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was too famous. But it just, you know, it was just a

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different show. And I mean,
I still think he was probably the funniest

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person behind the desk. I think
Carson was the best overall host, but

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in terms of funny and stuff,
I would say Dave's NBC show, and

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yeah, maybe the first few years
of CBS, Yeah, Dave had the

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twelve thirty vibe of no one's watching. I can make something out of nothing.

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Now Conan once Conan found his fastball, sort of picked up that torch.

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But to me, eleven thirty Dave. I always thought of it as

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the guy at twelve thirty was wearing
sneakers and the guy at eleven thirty had

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on on Amani suit, and just
that alone was just different. You had

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to play at eleven thirty. There's
definitely change that have been the need to

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be made. But I think any
of the shows that the people started at

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twelve thirty and then went down at
eleven thirty, I prefer the twelve thirty

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looseness. And I get the prestige
of going to eleven thirty and playing to

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a mass audience, but the necessary
changes, just at least to somebody to

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me, people that grew up or
that watched the twelve thirty, it was

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it was not the same. And
I really do think that in terms of

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the best work that they did when
they were looser and they didn't have to

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worry as much about making the changes, the twelve thirty shows were the best.

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All right, So let's talk about
the new podcast. Where did it

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come from? How did you hook
up with Bill in the site? The

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site is late Night or, which
is fantastic. It's already one of my

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key resources as I'm listening, especially
specifically the Smigel interview. When I listened

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to the Carson podcast, I thought, Oh, this guy's just a big

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Carson fan. And now I'm sensing, are you industry or you seem to

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know people a little bit more than
maybe you know. I worked in TV

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at day jobs for a bunch of
years, and I've just been around people

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that I've been able to have some
private conversations with that trusted me, and

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I definitely when I'm talking to Robert, who I've known since I was seventeen,

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I mean during the whole Carson podcast, I mean, Robert was very

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nice to do my last episode and
bring Dana Carvey in. I just wanted

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to talk about Carson because he wrote
the Johnny Carson sketches on SNL that Johnny

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did not like, and talk about
some other things about Carson with Smigel.

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But I've known him since I was
seventeen, knew I know more about SNL

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than I did it of Carson,
and I was very I knew a lot

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about Carson, so it was one
of those things where I had a lot

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of information. I mean I had
a day job at Letterman too, so

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I always wanted to talk to people
about the other shows and maybe broad in

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because I knew I had this knowledge, and I definitely had questions that I

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just I really wanted to be answered. So I thought this was a good

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fit. Jed, who runs Late
Night Er, was a fan of the

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podcast Carson, and he said,
you know, if you ever want to

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do something, let me know.
We had a couple of conversations and it

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made sense. I mean, yeah, Bill Carter's editor at large, and

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I there's just there are a lot
of people I wanted to talk to.

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The host Bert Sugarman for Midnight Special
is the guest next week, so we're

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going different time periods. I mean
Sugarman Midnight Special seventy two to I think

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eighty one, and he was the
creator and producer of Bert Sugarman's Midnight Special,

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which every rock act you can imagine
and not country, I mean everyone

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from Johnny Cash to led Zeppelin,
to Kiss to David Bowie and just kind

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of going back every Friday Midnight Special
and to just just talk about the evolution

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of late night and Johnny Carson was
very influential and Midnight Special. Sugarman and

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Carson were next door neighbors in bel
Air, so there's a lot of Carson

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that goes with it. So yeah, it was that was fun. So

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we're just going to go around the
genre and see who we can talk to.

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I love that you're going that deep
with it. That's cool. I

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remember that show. That's awesome.
Yeah, it's his YouTube channel's amazing.

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He's an amazing businessman. He owns
it, which I mean Carson didn't get

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ownership till like nineteen eighty of his
Tonight show, but Sugarman in seventy two

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or whatever. NBC didn't believe in
it and basically had to bought airtime on

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NBC, and NBC said, fine, if you pay for everything, so

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he owned it. He has everything, and yeah, the channel is just

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phenomenal. I mean people like Linda
Ronstat, she went on Carson and I

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think sixty eight or sixty nine and
would not do Johnny's Show because the audio.

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A lot of acts did not want
to do Johnny's Show because TV was

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perceived as a lot of times the
audio people and stuff just were not able

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to adjust to rock in different sounds
and stuff. So like Neil Diamond didn't

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do Carson Show or any show including
Midnight Special, and they try to get

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him until Johnny's last year. His
Diamond had a bad experience with it.

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So Carl have to go across the
hall to watch Linda Ronstadt on Midnight specially

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because he was such a fan.
He'd go over to visit Richard Pryor when

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he was hosting, so he would
definitely go over. But there were certain

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acts, Yeah, like Linda Ronstadt
he wasn't able to get into, like

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eighty four, eighty six and yeah, the Tonight Show, the Carson audio

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people stayed up till the middle of
the night the night before just making sure

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the audio was good. And then
you know, Ronstadt was so ron stet

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was so happy and ended up doing
Carson Show, like I think five more

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times after that. Are you finding
this podcast easier to book? Because I'm

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imaginally say we wanted a book.
I know Branford More Salas, there's a

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road to get to Branford More Sallas. But if you want to book somebody

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from the back offices from Carson circa
nineteen seventy six, that seems to me

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like it would be a lot harder. I'd rather try and book Branford than

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a random civilian forty years long.
I'm you know, I'm going wide.

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I mean, I just asked somebody
who worked at the Tonight Show in New

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York because I wasn't aware of them
if they would do it. But yeah,

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going to a Branford, even though
I'd be very surprised if he said

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yes, he publicly said bad stuff
about Jay Leno, publicly said bad stuff

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about Carson. I would love to. I'm gonna ask him. It's you

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never know, people are gonna say
yes or no. But yeah, I

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mean definitely to talk to some of
those types is definitely easier to get to.

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I mean some of the people to
track down took me forever, I

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mean months, sometimes the kind of
the behind the scenes people. I was

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just so obsessed with the New York
Tonight Show era from sixty two to seventy

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two. It was worth it.
And I was just I mean, people

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like Jason Bateman that were kids on
the show now we're in like their fifties,

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so I mean, it was just
so many of the people that I

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wanted to get were just I mean, they were passing away, and it

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just got it got very hard to
be guessed at the end, just because

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the pool of people that were still
around was tiny. And this is definitely

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a lot easier so far in terms
of the book, and but I think

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it really comes down to so many
people. I got a lot of big

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guests on Carson, and people have
been very nice on this is for Carson,

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and I did not know this.
It never occurred to me, is

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that it was one of the best
times in their lives generally for a lot

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of these people, and they've never
gotten to talk about it at length,

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certainly, So I mean I always
equate it to somebody that had the best

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college experience, but they never get
to talk about it. No one really

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cares. But they suddenly have this
audience of somebody that knows all these things

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about them when they were on Carson
and things, and people said yes to

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me that I just never would have
expected in a million years. And hopefully

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this is kind of the same,
you know, talking about your first time

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on Latterman and just you know,
Dave meant a lot to a lot of

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the guests and so forth, and
so we'll see what happens. I just

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hope that people will trust me to
come on, and my whole goal is

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is to present to my audience things
that they probably do not know, things

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that the guests have never talked about, stories that maybe they're rarely talked about.

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Buried but just with Carson and everything, I mean, I didn't ask

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Rachel Dratch how she came up with
Debbie Downer because she's talked about that on

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Saturday Night Live so many times in
interviews. It's so easily googleble and I

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don't want to be that guy.
There's no reason for me to ask some

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of those questions that they've answered a
million times. So we're just trying to

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go in deeper. And yeah,
so far, it's been fun, and

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guests have been very generous with their
time and with just sharing their stories.

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You gave me flashbacks when you mentioned
New York era Carson Tonight Show and how

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so many of the archives are gone. It was kind of cool what Jerry

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did in the pop Tarts movie.
Yes, you know, in another life,

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I worked at WR Radio late nineties. We found an entire room,

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probably the size of my office,
of just stacked real to real tapes.

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But I was tasked with throwing them
out. And I'm going through these tapes,

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and you know, I'm twenty something
years old. What am I going

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to do with all these tapes?
And it's like, all right, Viking

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six launch, toss, random LBJA
toss, JFK something, All right,

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let's try and keep that. I
dubbed everything down to mini disc back in

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the day. I had left the
art When I left WA, I left

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the archives behind. When they did
their one hundredth anniversary, I lent them

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a dub of my archives. So
I was happy that that happened properly.

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But my larger point here is here
in the digital age, I wonder how

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much stuff disappears, Like somebody like
Mark Marin has almost definitely every episode on

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a hard drive or some technology somewhere, but especially celebrity shows working with podcast

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companies that are really radio companies.
I wonder how many of these shows are

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just going to vanish because nobody bothers
to back it up, or somebody stops

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paying for hosting, and all these
things are just going to go away.

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I really worry about it. Yeah, I hopefully now people are a little

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bit better about it, but certainly
Johnny was furious when if NBC erased everything.

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Luckily there are i'd say from sixty
two to seventy two, there's probably

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I don't know, maybe at least
a couple dozen, if not more,

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shows that existed. There's absolutely kinescopes
dating back to Johnny's first month on the

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air. I've seen them. It
is pretty wild to watch. I don't

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think anybody's ever seen these clips and
things. But you have people like Bob

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Newhart guest hosting in sixty four,
and there's definitely some of the guest hosts

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and just random kiness scopes. It
was such a shame that they erased the

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most pivotal things. It seems like
every year, and it could be off

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on this that somebody comes up with
something and to find something, people did

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have them an addicts and stuff and
whenever they're able to find something. It's

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like a treasure quest to find some
of these clips. Like Carson, people

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were so desperate to get clips because
they went to Burbank in seventy two.

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They moved and had an anniversary show
where they caldn't really do when think is

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all the clips where gone? Johnny
and his brilliance requested the at Ames thing,

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so he had that, and they
had a few things. But they

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were actually taking ads in newspapers of
the Tonight Show people around at least in

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LA probably around the country, asking
people if they had clips from New York,

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if they happen to tape them themselves
privately, if they could send them

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into the show for the anniversary shows. Was that very second that my microphone

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could out see here? Mark end
up on an up inflection there and I

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don't respond. I don't want to
think we got mad each other. So

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a figure, let's take the break
right now, let's walk up through the

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Tonight Show. You seem like a
very positive guy, so I'm not looking

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for any sort of pylon, but
let's talk. I'd love to know what

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your thoughts are on Leno Conan Leno
two fallon we can go quick. Yeah,

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I mean, I think it's one
of those things that NBC could could

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have handled it better the whole like
four years Conan's going to get the Tonight

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Show thing. I understand Jay being
upset because he was still number one,

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and it just rarely do they just
force somebody out when they're number one,

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with all the demographics in the raid
ins. At the same time, NBC

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was afrad Conan was going to go
somewhere else. I mean, Fox offered

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him a lot of money to go
there, and I just think that they

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were just afraid of that situation.
And then once Conan was given the Tonight

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Show, Jay was given this ten
o'clock show, which just was okay,

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It wasn't anything great, definitely after
watching and I didn't think it was probably

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going to go anywhere. And if
NBC would have gotten rid of j they

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would have had to pay him over
one hundred million dollars, so well didn't

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realize that. Oh yeah, I
mean it was ridiculous money. So NBC

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would have looked so foolish having to
pay him over a hundred million. If

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they got rid of Conan, they
would have paid him forty million, So

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forty million versus over one hundred million. Then it turned out Conan had ten

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months to figure out the Tonight Show, which he had problems, but everybody

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did. I mean I touched a
Jay on the phone. He was very

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nice to me, but diplomatically,
I mean I was just like, Jay,

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you didn't figure out your show in
ten months. I mean, it

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took you at least a year and
a half until you did this show in

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h and New York where your show
found your voice. I said to him,

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there's no way in ten months Conan
did it. I mean anybody from

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Jay certainly to Colbert who's number one
now didn't figure it out the first year.

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I mean people forget they look at
the success, but Colbert was number

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three and just everybody was piling on
him with criticism and stuff. So the

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show is they take a while.
John Stewart's first year on the Daily Show,

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certainly people were like, we missed
Craig Hillbourn, we missed Craig Hillboord

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and just the new somebody that's doing
something new, especially than making change.

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It just takes a while. I
don't think Conan was given enough time.

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Certainly there's host including Jay. If
they were only giving ton months. I

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don't think that they probably would have
lasted. So, you know, Conan

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could have gone to twelve I guess
they could have moved tonight show to like

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twelve oh five or something, and
I get you know, Conan didn't want

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to move backwards. NBC paid him
I believe it was forty million dollars,

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and then he went to TBS,
which it was tough. I mean,

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just you know, people, really, I don't think we're really watching that

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as much as they would have Network
shown it. They did great work,

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some of the stuff did, I
mean, did very well online. And

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then Conan now ironically being doing a
podcast once a week, I feel like

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is more popular than any of the
people currently behind the desk absolutely, I

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mean, and they all do a
great job, and what Conan does is

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very different. But I feel like
full circle that was the best thing that

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ever happened to him, and that
he can do his HBO show right now,

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which is really funny, and uh
yeah, I feel like this was

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this was his strength. And doing
those shows five days a week for years

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is not healthy for the person.
Some people it's just affected them in negative

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ways. And I just think Conan's
probably in the best possible place, and

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everything worked out bet the best it
could have. I actually think the Leno

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ten pm idea was the right idea, but too soon. My premise.

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If I told you right now,
you could have sixty four year old j

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leto at ten pm, four nights
a week on NBC in today's network environment,

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at that kind of budget for producing
a show, I think NBC would

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kill to have that show. Maybe
not seventy four year old J but right

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show, wrong time, it could
have been. I watched the first show

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and there were certain things that I
saw that I was like, I just

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couldn't believe that that was the choice
they were making. And I just in

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my head, I'm like, if
they keep making certain decisions like this,

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I don't see the show going.
It was so bizarre as a Jay the

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very first time that I know of
in his career challenged one of his guests,

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kind of I'm sure he was pressured
into it just to get publicity for

357
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the show, but asking Kanye West, who had just had I guess,

358
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you know, got in thrown out
of the MTV Awards or whatever it was,

359
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I forget what it was for going
in front Taylor Swift won an Award

360
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and Kanye grabbing a mic and I
think he said, Jase, that's what

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would your mom think? Because j
I think his mom Kenye's mom had passed

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00:24:17.240 --> 00:24:21.279
away. It was this different Jay, and obviously I think that they were

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trying to do different things. I
just I mean Fred Silverman, I think

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was one of the NBC chief is
one of the I think he made even

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00:24:30.119 --> 00:24:33.920
had the idea at first that they
should do this. I don't know if

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00:24:33.960 --> 00:24:38.039
Silverman inspired or what, but like
Silverman, I asked him about it because

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I said, this was your idea
for Jada to to do this, and

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He's just like, I just,
I mean, it just wasn't well executed,

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basically, is what he said.
I don't know. Jay to me

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is still one of the best stand
ups. I mean, if you look

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at the NBC show, the Letterman
thing is stuff is incredible. It just

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wasn't a fit. And then NBC's
like, what do we do with j

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And then if he leaves, we
have to pay one hundred million. It

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would be a nightmare scenario in terms
of the press. I mean, people

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would still be talking about that if
they had to pay him over a hundred

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million. So it makes sense talking
about it anyway, though, I still

377
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think if Jay was on at eleven
thirty, I mean, in terms of

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the ratings, I think he would
be really doing well. In terms of

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the online stuff, they would have
had to figure that stuff out. That

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was not his thing. But now
I think anybody competing against Jay Leno would

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not be fun for anyone because that
guy's work ethic is just like, I

382
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mean, nobody puts the amount of
work into anything other than him. His

383
00:25:38.960 --> 00:25:41.519
friends will all tell you, his
famous friends will all say the same thing.

384
00:25:42.400 --> 00:25:45.720
You know, everyone dismissed him when
he was getting his butt kicked by

385
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Letterman for the first like year or
two, and he just yeah, I

386
00:25:48.880 --> 00:25:53.680
mean, he's just his whole thing. All he wanted was to be number

387
00:25:53.680 --> 00:25:57.640
one, and he succeeded wildly in
being number one. I think a lot

388
00:25:57.680 --> 00:26:02.880
of people have said the show is
largely forgettable, and I don't know how

389
00:26:02.920 --> 00:26:06.920
many moments people can go back,
specific moments, be like, these are

390
00:26:07.000 --> 00:26:10.759
my moments that I remember from the
show, other than the Hugh Grant thing,

391
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which wasn't even a joke or anything
witty. It was just like,

392
00:26:14.559 --> 00:26:17.400
what the hell were you thinking?
People remember that, But in terms of

393
00:26:17.599 --> 00:26:22.119
like people remember certain bits like jaywalkin, but specific things that happened on that

394
00:26:22.160 --> 00:26:25.599
show. I think that there was
a lack in where as like Letterman,

395
00:26:25.720 --> 00:26:32.359
people can go back and just there's
very memorable incentences that happened. And yeah,

396
00:26:32.359 --> 00:26:36.000
it just the line Out show was
different in terms of, like I

397
00:26:36.000 --> 00:26:37.960
think what they were going for,
but they succeeded wildly and being number one.

398
00:26:38.160 --> 00:26:41.440
Yeah, I agree, it's one
of those weird things. It was

399
00:26:41.519 --> 00:26:45.279
number one forever, very successful,
lasted a long time and just has a

400
00:26:45.359 --> 00:26:48.240
vanilla ice cream legacy to it.
I mean it's great, but I think

401
00:26:48.240 --> 00:26:51.920
you nail that we're not sitting here
going on over the time, whereas I

402
00:26:52.000 --> 00:26:56.279
bet we could go down a very
deep eighties Letterman rabbit hole and maybe some

403
00:26:56.319 --> 00:26:57.599
other day I'll invite you on to
do that. Oh yeah, please.

404
00:26:59.599 --> 00:27:03.240
It's true. And I even think
the CBS thing people can can come up

405
00:27:03.279 --> 00:27:08.680
with with moments and it just was
different. I you know, I think

406
00:27:08.720 --> 00:27:11.960
it's if I had to guess,
I think it's probably hard for Jay now

407
00:27:12.079 --> 00:27:18.880
because at Letterman is like the guy
that everyone just kind of at least comedically

408
00:27:18.440 --> 00:27:22.119
they worship. I mean, if
Dave goes on any of those shows like

409
00:27:22.200 --> 00:27:26.680
Colbert, it's like Royalty, it's
such a huge deal. Like when Dave

410
00:27:26.680 --> 00:27:30.799
went on John Mulaney's Netflix talk show
and it's I mean, for him to

411
00:27:30.839 --> 00:27:37.920
do anything his show on Netflix,
he gets people that just do not normally

412
00:27:37.119 --> 00:27:41.559
do these things that are very elusive
to being guessed, but they seem to

413
00:27:41.599 --> 00:27:45.359
all say yes to Dave. So
I think that that's probably hard for Jay

414
00:27:47.440 --> 00:27:51.240
just to be in a different position
where he doesn't really get that accolade or

415
00:27:51.279 --> 00:27:55.680
the I don't know, the the
prestige that Dave has given. I'm sure

416
00:27:55.680 --> 00:28:00.960
that that I'm guessing that that has
to be hard for him. Yeah,

417
00:28:00.960 --> 00:28:03.720
I would agree with that. So
what did you think of Mlaney? I

418
00:28:03.720 --> 00:28:08.359
thought it was great in terms of
something that had not been really tested.

419
00:28:08.400 --> 00:28:11.759
I mean, normally those things take
forever to get on its feet and to

420
00:28:11.799 --> 00:28:17.400
have a cohesive feel, and I
thought that we're definitely there were raw and

421
00:28:17.599 --> 00:28:21.160
moments and stuff. But I think
overall, in terms of doing six shows

422
00:28:21.160 --> 00:28:25.119
that have never been these are his
first six shows, I thought, or

423
00:28:25.119 --> 00:28:27.160
whatever it was, I thought he
did great. I thought the format was

424
00:28:27.279 --> 00:28:33.079
really fun. I think it was
one of those things that they just kept

425
00:28:33.079 --> 00:28:34.839
doing the show, which I get. I mean that those things that are

426
00:28:34.880 --> 00:28:38.359
just pressure cookers and they take over
your lives. I think if he just

427
00:28:38.480 --> 00:28:41.319
kept doing it and stuff it just
obviously I think, you know, it

428
00:28:41.319 --> 00:28:45.599
would just get stronger and stronger.
But I thought for what they did and

429
00:28:45.640 --> 00:28:51.599
what they set out too, that
they did phenomenal. And yeah, I

430
00:28:51.640 --> 00:28:55.200
hope they come back and they do
it. But Mullany's smart enough to know

431
00:28:56.480 --> 00:29:00.640
that having one of those gigs is
just man. I mean, how many

432
00:29:00.640 --> 00:29:03.319
people, funny people like Chris Rock, Tina Fey, Amy Schumer just said

433
00:29:03.359 --> 00:29:08.279
no to those gigs. I mean, they're it to do that on a

434
00:29:08.440 --> 00:29:15.039
rate where you're going on every night. I mean, Johnny Carson would have

435
00:29:15.160 --> 00:29:18.440
tried, and people over there say
it and it's true, would have told

436
00:29:18.519 --> 00:29:23.880
Joan Rivers if she would have gone
to him that going to Fox was a

437
00:29:23.880 --> 00:29:27.119
mistake. He would have supported her
in terms of how much money if you

438
00:29:27.160 --> 00:29:30.680
want to do this, but out
of him just being love and Joan.

439
00:29:30.920 --> 00:29:33.359
It was great on the Tonight Show. Ever, as Carson said, every

440
00:29:33.400 --> 00:29:37.480
like five weeks, she could do
one week, but doing it every single

441
00:29:37.640 --> 00:29:41.839
night, it just wasn't gonna work. And Johnny would have told her that

442
00:29:41.920 --> 00:29:44.839
but given her her blessing. And
I mean, and then Joan does this

443
00:29:44.920 --> 00:29:48.559
show and guests don't want to be
doing and I mean she was counting on

444
00:29:48.599 --> 00:29:52.400
Barry Dillar to maybe try to get
some of the bigger guests and stuff.

445
00:29:52.440 --> 00:29:56.680
But like when you insult your guests
like that or not guests, I mean

446
00:29:56.880 --> 00:29:59.359
public figures, people aren't gonna want
to go on the show. And it's

447
00:29:59.400 --> 00:30:02.960
exactly what happened. She was very
good Joe to her own guests, making

448
00:30:03.000 --> 00:30:07.319
them look good, but just in
terms of her what she was known for

449
00:30:07.400 --> 00:30:11.480
and stuff, it just it just
didn't work. And I mean, Joan

450
00:30:11.599 --> 00:30:15.000
is is such a pioneer and very
funny with a lot of her stuff,

451
00:30:15.000 --> 00:30:22.440
but it just to do that every
single day is Yeah, most people,

452
00:30:22.480 --> 00:30:25.359
I mean our Sineo ended his show, but after four years, I mean

453
00:30:25.359 --> 00:30:27.400
they get burned up. Part I
think Jack part at four years. Steve

454
00:30:27.440 --> 00:30:32.839
Allen might have done five. But
there's a reason that these people got out,

455
00:30:33.279 --> 00:30:34.920
Craig Ferguson, they just, I
mean, it just got to be

456
00:30:36.119 --> 00:30:40.599
just too much. And it's that's
why it's kind of a miracle the Carson

457
00:30:40.640 --> 00:30:41.400
was able to do it. For
so long. Yeah, he had a

458
00:30:41.440 --> 00:30:45.799
lot of guest hosts and things.
But still, I mean, I don't

459
00:30:45.839 --> 00:30:48.440
think people know this, or maybe
you do. Probably in the beginning,

460
00:30:48.480 --> 00:30:56.359
Carson was doing an hour and forty
five minutes every single night in New York.

461
00:30:56.920 --> 00:31:03.319
That is just baffling his first bunches
of years. For today's host doing

462
00:31:03.400 --> 00:31:06.880
an hour, they would have to
host their show every single day of the

463
00:31:07.039 --> 00:31:11.960
year, plus like forty other shows
to make up of during that. To

464
00:31:11.000 --> 00:31:15.799
add to that, I mean,
it was bafflin what Carson was able to

465
00:31:15.839 --> 00:31:18.720
do all that in the ninety minutes. I have friends at all the shows,

466
00:31:18.720 --> 00:31:21.279
and for them to do an hour
is it's hard enough, But to

467
00:31:21.799 --> 00:31:25.200
do ninety minutes, which Carson was
doing up until like eighty eighty one something

468
00:31:25.279 --> 00:31:29.759
like that is just yeah at the
wear and teara it takes on the host.

469
00:31:29.880 --> 00:31:33.640
Yeah, today, I don't know
how that would work. Also,

470
00:31:33.720 --> 00:31:37.000
to the back end of those Carson
shows were pretty deep guests. It's one

471
00:31:37.039 --> 00:31:41.000
thing to go, hey, my
first guest tonight is Jerry Seinfeld has got

472
00:31:41.039 --> 00:31:42.839
a new movie. Please welcome Jerry, and then shut up and let your

473
00:31:42.839 --> 00:31:47.200
guests be funny. As I teach
radio, you know this. The famous

474
00:31:47.240 --> 00:31:51.000
example is shut up and let your
guests be funny, and then the next

475
00:31:51.079 --> 00:31:52.799
day everybody goes, did you see
Johnny? He was hilarious and what they

476
00:31:52.799 --> 00:31:57.119
really meant was Burt Reynolds told a
great story. But those ninety minute shows,

477
00:31:57.160 --> 00:32:02.039
those longer shows, guess he had
to carry that. You can't assume

478
00:32:02.119 --> 00:32:07.240
that a less famous Carl Sagan is
gonna come out and be super compelling.

479
00:32:07.319 --> 00:32:09.880
Yeah, he would. Johnny was
very good at reading the books, like

480
00:32:09.960 --> 00:32:14.680
John Stewart is about if somebody was
coming on, but he would have a

481
00:32:14.680 --> 00:32:19.079
lot of authors that would give them. He would put on certain people he

482
00:32:19.119 --> 00:32:22.920
agreed with politically that Johnny publicly couldn't
say he agreed with, like Paul Erlick,

483
00:32:22.079 --> 00:32:27.680
doctor Paul Erlick with population control,
and he would go to dinner with

484
00:32:27.759 --> 00:32:32.599
Paul Rlick after the show, would
go with Jim Fowler, zoologist. He'd

485
00:32:32.640 --> 00:32:37.200
go to dinner with certain people.
He was fast and never famous movie stars,

486
00:32:37.240 --> 00:32:40.079
but there was like maybe three people
in Erlick was one of them,

487
00:32:40.119 --> 00:32:45.319
in Carl Sagan that he was just
Carson was just I think those were some

488
00:32:45.359 --> 00:32:47.720
of his favorite guests, and he
would go and just ask them more questions,

489
00:32:47.880 --> 00:32:52.480
very curious man such as such as
Letterman. But yeah, having to

490
00:32:52.519 --> 00:32:55.640
put having those people on at twelve
thirty, and then you know, once

491
00:32:55.720 --> 00:32:59.960
the show went to a ninety sixty
minutes, it was like bye bye Buck,

492
00:33:00.119 --> 00:33:02.519
Henry, bye by. You know, Phyllis Newman wasn't really doing that.

493
00:33:02.599 --> 00:33:07.799
It was these amazing talkers that were
just phenomenal. A lot of them

494
00:33:07.839 --> 00:33:13.680
went away. Gord Vadal was one
person Johnny kept. There were certain ones,

495
00:33:13.680 --> 00:33:17.440
but for the most part, the
more just the people that I thought

496
00:33:17.519 --> 00:33:22.039
really shined on this show. It
just it just turned into something else.

497
00:33:22.039 --> 00:33:24.160
But that last half hour. Carson
always said, especially in New York,

498
00:33:24.519 --> 00:33:28.920
after an hour and forty five,
that he would just like, you know,

499
00:33:29.240 --> 00:33:32.759
just barely hold on to the conversation. Sometimes. I found myself when

500
00:33:32.759 --> 00:33:38.519
they first put The Johnny Carson Show
into syndication, the non branded Tonight show

501
00:33:38.559 --> 00:33:42.519
reruns on me TV. Maybe it
was the eleven o'clock when it was on

502
00:33:42.559 --> 00:33:46.720
at eleven. I found myself really
attracted to the seventies shows more than the

503
00:33:46.759 --> 00:33:51.240
eighties shows. Part of it the
lighting of the style of guests. What

504
00:33:51.279 --> 00:33:54.319
you just alluded to was more a
celebrity b celebrity and let's get out of

505
00:33:54.359 --> 00:34:00.000
here. And those seventies shows just
feel more free flowing. Even the combination

506
00:34:00.079 --> 00:34:04.720
of people on the couch. There's
just like everything else, it's a different

507
00:34:04.759 --> 00:34:07.400
time. But like I love those
seventies, I feel like, in terms

508
00:34:07.400 --> 00:34:12.119
of it being loose and spontaneous,
there's stuff that was supposed to be spontaneous

509
00:34:12.119 --> 00:34:15.840
that viewers think are spontaneous. I
feel like there could be danger with certain

510
00:34:15.920 --> 00:34:19.199
guests and with certain things that would
happen on the show in the eighties up

511
00:34:19.239 --> 00:34:22.920
to ninety two. Yeah, I
think the seventies, in terms of Carson

512
00:34:22.079 --> 00:34:28.480
as having the voice as a host, the best clips I would say were

513
00:34:28.559 --> 00:34:31.679
the seventies. I mean, I
love Johnny until the end, but if

514
00:34:31.719 --> 00:34:37.599
I had to pick my favorite moments
ninety percent, I would pick seventies.

515
00:34:37.639 --> 00:34:42.719
And I mean the sixties definitely is
like this time capsule, and they did

516
00:34:42.719 --> 00:34:45.800
some really funny stuff in the sixties
as well, But I definitely think the

517
00:34:45.840 --> 00:34:50.159
peak of the show was seventies.
And I've heard people at the top that

518
00:34:50.239 --> 00:34:53.800
worked for him say the same thing. The other thing Johnny did that was

519
00:34:53.800 --> 00:34:59.360
smart was he went away and stayed
away. There's that one Letterman appearance,

520
00:34:59.480 --> 00:35:04.039
but we they don't have memories of
past his prime Johnny. I was talking

521
00:35:04.079 --> 00:35:07.519
to a friend the other day.
I heard a legendary jock from a New

522
00:35:07.559 --> 00:35:09.960
York City radio station still on the
air somewhere, and I was like,

523
00:35:10.440 --> 00:35:14.599
ooh, it's it might be time
to hang it up. I get it,

524
00:35:14.639 --> 00:35:19.519
and just you don't remember. My
last memory of Johnny is showing up

525
00:35:19.519 --> 00:35:22.159
on Letterman. It was tough for
him to watch certain people that he really

526
00:35:22.239 --> 00:35:28.679
admired, like Jack Benny, he
felt stayed way too long. Bob Hope

527
00:35:28.760 --> 00:35:31.599
was the biggest example. But you
know that was his fear. You want

528
00:35:31.599 --> 00:35:36.840
to leave while you're on top,
and you don't want to. I mean

529
00:35:36.840 --> 00:35:39.199
there were people like Don Rickles who
I loved, and people like Rageous Film

530
00:35:39.199 --> 00:35:45.719
in up until they passed. They
needed that audience, they needed to be

531
00:35:45.760 --> 00:35:47.079
in front of an audience. They
loved when people would come up to them

532
00:35:47.119 --> 00:35:51.360
in public. I know that a
lot of people that maybe that aren't in

533
00:35:51.519 --> 00:35:53.480
entertainment or haven't been around it.
I think you don't want to bother these

534
00:35:53.519 --> 00:35:57.199
people. It's some of them and
I've been out to dinner and lunches with

535
00:35:57.239 --> 00:36:00.840
them. I've said they needed.
They like when people come over. Some

536
00:36:00.880 --> 00:36:05.599
people not as much, but there's
certain people that needed that, and Johnny

537
00:36:05.840 --> 00:36:08.199
was not one of them. People
would come up and pay him compliments and

538
00:36:08.199 --> 00:36:10.880
stuff. This meant so much.
This got made through a tough time,

539
00:36:10.920 --> 00:36:15.039
and they would send him letters and
stuff. He always loved that. But

540
00:36:15.480 --> 00:36:20.360
he almost came back once to do
an NBC special. But I you know,

541
00:36:20.840 --> 00:36:25.239
he had stopped smoking ninety two.
He had tried earlier many times,

542
00:36:25.280 --> 00:36:30.639
but his physical appearance started to change
and he started gaining weight, and I

543
00:36:30.719 --> 00:36:34.000
think that probably contributed to some of
it. That he just didn't want to

544
00:36:34.599 --> 00:36:37.159
look different than he did. And
yeah, I just like a lot of

545
00:36:37.199 --> 00:36:42.880
those factors. He just wanted the
work to speak for itself and to not

546
00:36:44.000 --> 00:36:45.199
I mean, he just saw it
on the Tonight Show all the time.

547
00:36:45.519 --> 00:36:50.239
He felt Grouch Show near the end
too, It's like, why are you

548
00:36:50.400 --> 00:36:54.440
going on TV like this? I'm
smiling. I'm thinking of Gilbert Godfried's grouchow

549
00:36:54.440 --> 00:36:59.440
imres, which he only did Old
Grouch Show. Yeah, yeah, Gilbert

550
00:36:59.519 --> 00:37:01.599
oh Man, And I was just
talking about him yesterday. He was great.

551
00:37:01.599 --> 00:37:05.519
It was I know him a little
bit and I was a guest on

552
00:37:05.519 --> 00:37:08.400
his podcast for some bonus episodes at
least one or I don't know, and

553
00:37:08.480 --> 00:37:12.679
I got to spend time with him. I had him on the Carson podcast

554
00:37:12.760 --> 00:37:17.440
and he insisted that for me to
interview might to buy him a sandwich,

555
00:37:17.480 --> 00:37:20.960
which I did. He was like, Kaiser role, go to this deli

556
00:37:21.199 --> 00:37:23.320
by my house in Chelsea, Kaiser
role with this and this, and I

557
00:37:23.360 --> 00:37:25.719
had to get him a drink and
all these things. It was like six

558
00:37:25.719 --> 00:37:30.400
point fifty to interview Gil and I
went to his home and we yeah,

559
00:37:30.400 --> 00:37:34.119
he did it, but he was
quirky like that. He was fun,

560
00:37:34.760 --> 00:37:37.679
kind of known for that type of
thing, getting free things and stuff.

561
00:37:37.760 --> 00:37:43.719
But what a talent. I was
really felt fortunate to know him just a

562
00:37:43.760 --> 00:37:49.760
little bit. I enjoyed the economy
between on air Gilbert and Gilbert in the

563
00:37:49.760 --> 00:37:52.960
hallway high nice to meet you,
yeah, right, and then like Goan

564
00:37:52.079 --> 00:37:57.079
and Gilbert, godfre you. It's
really true. I first met him.

565
00:37:57.199 --> 00:38:00.800
They had this comedy writer party that
I got invited too. I think maybe

566
00:38:00.800 --> 00:38:04.960
Frank Santa Padre invited me, and
uh, I don't know. It's probably

567
00:38:05.000 --> 00:38:08.960
eighty people and stuff, and gil
was just on like by himself on a

568
00:38:09.119 --> 00:38:14.079
on a chair you know, some
comedians are a little bit shy, a

569
00:38:14.079 --> 00:38:16.719
little shy here and there. So
I just wanted to go up to him

570
00:38:16.760 --> 00:38:20.559
just to let him know I'm doing
this Johnny Carson podcast and we have met

571
00:38:20.679 --> 00:38:22.719
before, and I just expected,
like, I don't know, like a

572
00:38:22.760 --> 00:38:24.599
minute or two. And then I
was like, I want to leave him

573
00:38:24.599 --> 00:38:28.920
alone, but I don't know.
We talked for like it seemed like at

574
00:38:29.000 --> 00:38:31.159
least forty minutes. Maybe it was
an hour, I'm not sure, but

575
00:38:31.239 --> 00:38:37.440
he just we had this bond right
away when I mentioned Carson, and it

576
00:38:37.559 --> 00:38:39.760
was just throughout the whole thing.
I'm like, I just don't want to

577
00:38:39.800 --> 00:38:44.400
be bothering him, but it wasn't
a bother And I think if people knew

578
00:38:44.440 --> 00:38:50.679
comedy well and they could connect with
him, and I think to this day

579
00:38:50.880 --> 00:38:52.800
it's probably true of a lot of
comedians. When you know that much about

580
00:38:52.840 --> 00:38:55.760
something, and there aren't a lot
of people that do, it's just this

581
00:38:55.920 --> 00:39:00.920
bond. And then a lot of
times like time how long I'll do this

582
00:39:01.000 --> 00:39:04.119
in interviews and stuff, I'll think
it had a touch in that for twenty

583
00:39:04.119 --> 00:39:06.320
minutes, it's like an hour and
a half, and it just goes by

584
00:39:06.480 --> 00:39:09.519
so quickly. But gil was just
such a lover of comedy, and yeah,

585
00:39:09.519 --> 00:39:13.119
I was lucky to be able to
do that and just to have these

586
00:39:13.159 --> 00:39:16.199
conversations and just to hear a lot
of his stories, which I mean,

587
00:39:16.519 --> 00:39:24.320
just a phenomenal storyteller. I loved
his podcast because it really dove into the

588
00:39:24.360 --> 00:39:29.920
monoculture that had gotten into your brain
by osmosis. So those of us of

589
00:39:29.960 --> 00:39:34.920
a certain age that grew up on
five channels kind of knew who people were

590
00:39:35.079 --> 00:39:39.320
because Bugs Bunny did a Humphrey Bogart
impression that kind of stuff, and Gilbert

591
00:39:39.320 --> 00:39:44.079
would talk about the lawn Cheney's of
the world, and you kind of sort

592
00:39:44.079 --> 00:39:46.480
of knew who these people were.
Whereas if my son is twenty one now,

593
00:39:46.519 --> 00:39:50.159
if I showed him anything from the
twentieth century, I could be like,

594
00:39:50.159 --> 00:39:52.159
this is John Travolta. He's really
famous. He would have no idea.

595
00:39:52.440 --> 00:39:57.280
It's just a different tay, it
really is. I'm always fascinated when

596
00:39:57.280 --> 00:40:01.199
I get emails from people in college
or just people that are in their twenties

597
00:40:01.360 --> 00:40:07.119
that listen to the Carson Podcast and
found Johnny on YouTube, and yeah,

598
00:40:07.159 --> 00:40:15.480
that people just get into cavit or
anything from from the retro years and yeah,

599
00:40:15.639 --> 00:40:19.960
the typically that no one under forty
knows who Carson is. I would

600
00:40:20.159 --> 00:40:22.920
probably say people under thirty, I
don't even know if Leno, I mean

601
00:40:22.000 --> 00:40:27.920
Leno said it was like only a
couple of years after he left that you

602
00:40:27.960 --> 00:40:30.679
know, he was in my home
where I grew up a lot on Hershey,

603
00:40:30.719 --> 00:40:34.559
Pennsylvania, and he was at a
theater and somebody younger person was like,

604
00:40:34.599 --> 00:40:37.559
have you done anything else other than
this, like stand up and no

605
00:40:37.679 --> 00:40:42.840
clue he was hosted the Tonight's Show
or anything. Yeah, people forget pretty

606
00:40:42.880 --> 00:40:45.280
quickly, but now they did great. I mean Frank Santa Padre, who

607
00:40:45.320 --> 00:40:51.039
was wonderful, did pretty much all
the research of the guest, and gil

608
00:40:51.119 --> 00:40:55.400
would just show up and just you
know, sometimes even fall asleep during the

609
00:40:55.440 --> 00:41:00.480
taping. But yeah, Fry,
it was a good pair because Gilbert was

610
00:41:00.559 --> 00:41:02.679
charming and had some good questions.
But if it was bored, man,

611
00:41:02.719 --> 00:41:06.960
you can tell sometimes like thirty minutes
goes by, it's just Frank and you

612
00:41:07.320 --> 00:41:10.320
like, where's gil and it's like, yeah, he's Especially in the early

613
00:41:10.400 --> 00:41:15.760
years it was like The Frank Show
with Yabbert and then but it's the same

614
00:41:15.760 --> 00:41:19.519
thing we keep talking about, right
the first year, you're kind of finding

615
00:41:19.519 --> 00:41:22.440
your way. Yeah, they did
a great job. I mean, talk

616
00:41:22.519 --> 00:41:28.199
to Frank about this. Sometimes it's
just like it's so heartbreaking and obviously it's

617
00:41:28.199 --> 00:41:30.280
inevitable. At how many people have
passed away on both of our shows.

618
00:41:30.280 --> 00:41:35.159
I mean, I think with Carson
podcasts, we've had forty people that I

619
00:41:35.199 --> 00:41:37.360
interviewed. I mean a lot of
people in their nineties, late eighties and

620
00:41:37.400 --> 00:41:42.239
stuff. And then you have people
like they did this amazing photo like a

621
00:41:42.320 --> 00:41:45.280
year before they all passed, But
it's like it's a photo. It's like

622
00:41:45.400 --> 00:41:50.880
Gilbert Godfrey, Bob Saggan and Louis
Anderson, and these are people I'm like,

623
00:41:50.920 --> 00:41:52.559
oh, I put off interview and
then they're gonna be around forever.

624
00:41:52.639 --> 00:41:55.360
And luckily I got all of them
to do the podcast, and then within

625
00:41:55.400 --> 00:42:00.480
a year they're all gone. It's
just I feel very I never thought like

626
00:42:00.480 --> 00:42:04.239
a Bob Einstein, who I had
on twice so I got to know a

627
00:42:04.280 --> 00:42:06.880
bit and talk on the phone.
It's just like you don't think about them

628
00:42:07.039 --> 00:42:10.280
being gone, and I'm just so
glad that I was able to get them,

629
00:42:10.519 --> 00:42:15.000
and you just never know when they
did the same thing. They just

630
00:42:15.039 --> 00:42:19.760
got so many people who just think
are going to be around for a while

631
00:42:19.800 --> 00:42:22.760
longer, like Peter Fonda, and
they were just able to get these stories

632
00:42:22.800 --> 00:42:27.199
that some of them I'm sure have
never been told or quite told like that.

633
00:42:29.000 --> 00:42:32.360
Looking to the future, how do
you think late night factors in the

634
00:42:32.440 --> 00:42:37.679
streaming era? Is there a play? Does it have to be eleven thirty?

635
00:42:37.719 --> 00:42:40.559
Could we stream Malaney at eight o'clock? Do we not need this anymore?

636
00:42:42.239 --> 00:42:45.199
Even the network shows. If Jimmy
Kimmel does retire, which I don't

637
00:42:45.199 --> 00:42:50.679
believe he will, do you even
bother in terms of the streaming, I

638
00:42:50.719 --> 00:42:54.320
think for one of those shows to
survive on streaming that they're going to probably

639
00:42:54.519 --> 00:42:59.400
take a more mullany approach, which
is like, maybe they do a show

640
00:42:59.639 --> 00:43:02.719
like Lanny, does it like maybe
four times a year or whoever it is,

641
00:43:02.760 --> 00:43:08.079
maybe does like six here at a
time. But I can't and I

642
00:43:08.119 --> 00:43:14.840
could be wrong that there would be
anybody doing a show five nights a week

643
00:43:14.880 --> 00:43:16.400
on streaming where they felt they had
to check in. I mean, so

644
00:43:16.519 --> 00:43:23.519
many of the mat treks are people
watching the next day on YouTube and online.

645
00:43:24.599 --> 00:43:29.519
They're just there has to be a
reason for people to make it.

646
00:43:29.599 --> 00:43:32.639
Appointment television that they're going to stay
up and there I don't know if there

647
00:43:32.679 --> 00:43:38.119
was a danger when Dave was at
twelve thirty where you just never knew what

648
00:43:38.199 --> 00:43:42.920
was going to happen, and part
of that just to stay up, and

649
00:43:42.960 --> 00:43:46.559
I felt like I always had the
expectation there's just gonna be something a bit

650
00:43:46.639 --> 00:43:49.800
dangerous what he was going to say, what was going to happen, and

651
00:43:49.840 --> 00:43:53.960
that I don't know if that exists
now. I think for the networks it's

652
00:43:54.039 --> 00:43:59.079
still a cash cow. Not as
much money as it was. I mean,

653
00:43:59.119 --> 00:44:01.599
the viewers every year or go down
on broadcast TV, but they're still

654
00:44:01.920 --> 00:44:05.960
I mean, you have Harrison ford
On and you're paying him scale. I

655
00:44:05.960 --> 00:44:09.400
mean that started with I believe Steve
Allen that there was somebody over there producer

656
00:44:09.480 --> 00:44:15.320
on Steve Allen's Tonight Show that's like, no, let Sullivan pay them exuberant

657
00:44:15.559 --> 00:44:17.679
money. We're just going to pay
scale. And it stuck. So you

658
00:44:17.719 --> 00:44:22.360
can still get these amazing guests.
You're paying them not a lot of money.

659
00:44:22.480 --> 00:44:30.079
And yeah, I mean there's this
whole myth that Cordon's show was losing

660
00:44:30.159 --> 00:44:32.280
money and that's why James Corden left, which could not be further from the

661
00:44:32.360 --> 00:44:37.239
truth. It was so not true. They were still making money. It's

662
00:44:37.320 --> 00:44:42.519
just they were not what they were. I mean say that with broadcast television.

663
00:44:42.559 --> 00:44:46.239
I remember when I was an intern
on a Spen City Michael J Fox

664
00:44:46.280 --> 00:44:52.960
ABC, when they were still throwing
around crazy network money and the parties and

665
00:44:53.000 --> 00:44:57.320
just everything was this and then they
just the network started. I mean that

666
00:44:57.400 --> 00:45:01.199
was back when people were leaving Saturday
Night Live. I think it was near

667
00:45:01.199 --> 00:45:04.920
the end. I remember Cherry O
Terry and Chris Catan after I said out.

668
00:45:04.960 --> 00:45:07.280
They got big network deals, her
at CBS and him at ABC,

669
00:45:07.800 --> 00:45:12.320
and it was still like the peak
at the network paying writers that couldn't even

670
00:45:12.360 --> 00:45:16.639
write creates that comes like crazy money
for development deals and that's I remember when

671
00:45:16.679 --> 00:45:21.599
it started stopping, and it's just, oh man, it's just network.

672
00:45:22.159 --> 00:45:28.079
It happened with network. It's yeah, it's in terms of the primetime stuff,

673
00:45:28.199 --> 00:45:31.119
with how it's dealt with now it's
night and day and I have Yeah,

674
00:45:31.480 --> 00:45:36.360
it seems like with late night it's
just different. I mean, I

675
00:45:36.400 --> 00:45:38.519
hope you know I'll share this with
you. I haven't really talked about it

676
00:45:38.559 --> 00:45:43.199
this much. There were two late
night shows where the network made the head

677
00:45:43.239 --> 00:45:47.119
producers and the hosts take significant pay
cuts to stay on the air. It

678
00:45:47.159 --> 00:45:52.280
was never talked about publicly that I'm
aware of, but these are people that

679
00:45:52.360 --> 00:45:55.960
I think would be very surprised their
shows were made to take ahead just because

680
00:45:57.360 --> 00:46:00.880
they weren't what they were, and
it's what it is. Shows kept going,

681
00:46:00.920 --> 00:46:02.719
and as possible, one of the
I was paying out of his own

682
00:46:02.719 --> 00:46:07.960
pocket to his staff the producers just
to make up for the money. I'm

683
00:46:07.960 --> 00:46:13.159
not sure, but everything changes and
stuff. I think those franchises will still

684
00:46:13.199 --> 00:46:16.559
be right. I mean, NBC
very smart, like just put Fallon's tenth

685
00:46:16.599 --> 00:46:21.519
anniversary in primetime and it did well. But as I told somebody over there,

686
00:46:21.519 --> 00:46:23.360
they should be doing that every year. A couple of years ago is

687
00:46:23.360 --> 00:46:27.679
talking into somebody high up on the
Totem pole and I'm like, you have

688
00:46:27.760 --> 00:46:34.079
to remind your viewers that Jimmy Fallon
has done all this memorable stuff on the

689
00:46:34.159 --> 00:46:39.440
shows with guests and gotten all these
people that normally don't do talk shows and

690
00:46:39.440 --> 00:46:43.760
stuff, and just remind your viewers. I mean, Falen's whole template was

691
00:46:43.800 --> 00:46:45.800
trying to be Johnny Carbson. He's
still to this day doesn't come out before

692
00:46:45.840 --> 00:46:49.440
the show to do a warm up
like most of the other shows, because

693
00:46:49.480 --> 00:46:53.199
Johnny did not. Kimmel when he
first started, for most of his years

694
00:46:53.199 --> 00:46:57.719
would come out before the show because
Dave did. But then Rickles was told

695
00:46:57.800 --> 00:46:59.840
him, I'm like, why are
you coming out beforehand? It ruins the

696
00:46:59.920 --> 00:47:02.559
energy you want to come out like
being shot out of a cannon. And

697
00:47:04.159 --> 00:47:09.559
Kimmel said He's tried it, and
Wrickles was right immediately completely. Jimmy noticed

698
00:47:09.599 --> 00:47:13.400
it was better for him not to
do the warm up, but Fallon,

699
00:47:13.639 --> 00:47:15.960
you know, Carson didn't do the
warm up. Fallon doesn't do the warm

700
00:47:15.000 --> 00:47:19.880
up. Falons and Carson's old studio
in six B. There's a lot of

701
00:47:20.159 --> 00:47:23.360
similarities towards both of them, but
one of them that he should be doing

702
00:47:23.480 --> 00:47:28.360
every year is an anniversary show.
I mean, you have to remind your

703
00:47:28.440 --> 00:47:35.480
audience of the especially in prime time, why you exist and the work that

704
00:47:36.639 --> 00:47:38.239
because he did. I mean,
it's a different show than the other Tonight

705
00:47:38.280 --> 00:47:43.000
shows. But as a clip show, they have some amazing, amazing stuff

706
00:47:43.039 --> 00:47:45.159
and I hope that they continue to
do that with the clip shows. Yeah,

707
00:47:45.800 --> 00:47:50.400
again, back to Letterman, where
those first five years that he did

708
00:47:50.440 --> 00:47:53.480
anniversary shows, and I think you
make a great point that Fallon for a

709
00:47:53.519 --> 00:47:59.159
clip show. Fallon's the one I
mentioned as somebody high at NBC that when

710
00:47:59.159 --> 00:48:01.800
they do the clips show, they
should be eight h because six B is

711
00:48:02.599 --> 00:48:06.400
you know. I mean, they
expanded it, but it's still a tiny

712
00:48:06.480 --> 00:48:08.840
studio. But he did it at
eight h like Leno when he was in

713
00:48:08.880 --> 00:48:14.440
New York. It's just the energy
of having more people, especially people close

714
00:48:14.519 --> 00:48:16.719
up. You can have people really
close up, like if you watch Saturday

715
00:48:16.800 --> 00:48:21.199
Night Live, they have those seats
that are just right there. And when

716
00:48:21.280 --> 00:48:22.960
Leno the first time he went to
New York, I mean I was there.

717
00:48:23.000 --> 00:48:27.440
I was in those seats right close
the thrust Age too. It was

718
00:48:27.480 --> 00:48:30.519
so successful and worked so well.
He went back to Burbank and that's when

719
00:48:30.559 --> 00:48:34.800
they built the thrust stage that was
right there. And I felt that that

720
00:48:34.960 --> 00:48:38.280
Fallon would just it would have just
been so much more exciting for him in

721
00:48:38.320 --> 00:48:42.079
the audience of just a different energy
if he did it in eight age for

722
00:48:42.119 --> 00:48:45.719
the anniversary shows. And maybe they
will at some point, but it makes

723
00:48:45.719 --> 00:48:49.719
a difference. The reason I'm laughing
now is last night I was at my

724
00:48:50.039 --> 00:48:52.880
daughter had a school performance, and
a bunch of the students got up and

725
00:48:52.920 --> 00:48:57.480
sang songs, and I was doing
this thing that I tend to do where

726
00:48:57.679 --> 00:49:00.320
I'm the last personal clap. If
you clap, I give it one more

727
00:49:00.320 --> 00:49:02.199
clap. And my older daughter looks
over at me and she's like, flexing

728
00:49:02.239 --> 00:49:07.239
your ego, and I told her
I started doing this. It was my

729
00:49:07.400 --> 00:49:10.880
fifteenth birthday and I got to see
Late Night with David Letterman. You had

730
00:49:10.880 --> 00:49:14.760
to be fifteen to get in,
and I got in, and my buddy

731
00:49:14.800 --> 00:49:17.079
and I wanted to hear ourselves on
the playback, so we just did one

732
00:49:17.119 --> 00:49:21.559
extra clap every time, and I've
kind of never stopped doing it. And

733
00:49:21.599 --> 00:49:23.400
then as my career went along and
I became a producer, I learned the

734
00:49:23.519 --> 00:49:28.239
art of clapping louder and dragging the
crowd up with you with your clap,

735
00:49:28.280 --> 00:49:31.199
and it just never stopped. So
just the memory of the studio there brought

736
00:49:31.199 --> 00:49:34.880
that back. I mean, I
have so much empathy because I worked in

737
00:49:34.920 --> 00:49:37.280
the medium, and I know how
hard it is for those hosts or for

738
00:49:37.360 --> 00:49:42.360
performers to be up on stage when
they're not getting that energy from the audience.

739
00:49:42.480 --> 00:49:45.159
I'm the clapper, I'm the laugher. If I'm invited from somebody to

740
00:49:45.239 --> 00:49:49.320
go to one of those shows,
I will tell the people next to me,

741
00:49:49.440 --> 00:49:54.199
I'm going to be laughing really,
really loud. It's one of those

742
00:49:54.239 --> 00:49:58.920
things where I've talked to the host
and the audiences have no idea. But

743
00:49:59.400 --> 00:50:04.400
usually late night audience, I don't
know, twenty percent of the people are

744
00:50:04.480 --> 00:50:07.679
so excited to be there and so
was starstruck that they forget to laugh,

745
00:50:07.079 --> 00:50:13.320
especially during the monologue opening remarks,
and then you just have people some people

746
00:50:13.320 --> 00:50:16.639
that just are not They laugh,
but they're just not audible. And it

747
00:50:16.679 --> 00:50:19.639
was just I mean, when I
were do on The Colbert Report, we

748
00:50:19.719 --> 00:50:22.920
got mostly good audiences, but it
was one hundred and seven seats every night.

749
00:50:22.960 --> 00:50:25.719
There would just be people that were
so excited to be there and I

750
00:50:25.920 --> 00:50:30.920
watched them and they just weren't.
So they would have these giant grins and

751
00:50:30.119 --> 00:50:35.440
expressions, but they would not laugh. I would have to before the show

752
00:50:35.960 --> 00:50:37.920
always talk to them and to remind
them to laugh, and it helped.

753
00:50:38.199 --> 00:50:43.360
But still there's people, and all
the laughs count, they really really do.

754
00:50:43.480 --> 00:50:49.239
Letterman was the most obsessed host with
the audience, and not the best

755
00:50:49.320 --> 00:50:53.480
way that I thought was probably positive
for him. But yeah, to get

756
00:50:53.480 --> 00:50:59.199
the clapping, which the host.
Actually the clapping is important, but they

757
00:50:59.239 --> 00:51:01.440
all want laugh more than clapping,
like I would bother Letterman when there would

758
00:51:01.440 --> 00:51:05.480
be too much clap in for sure
on his show. They just want the

759
00:51:05.519 --> 00:51:09.039
pure laughs, but clapping, definitely, the energy that you're talking about is

760
00:51:09.079 --> 00:51:13.079
what they need. And when I
go to one of those shows, I'm

761
00:51:13.079 --> 00:51:19.159
exhausted afterwards, just because I feel
that responsibility as an audience member and just

762
00:51:19.480 --> 00:51:22.920
knowing how tough that is for them, just that I'm going to be that

763
00:51:22.559 --> 00:51:28.360
person. We've talked on this podcast
a lot about clapter. Yes, watching

764
00:51:28.440 --> 00:51:31.639
us special in the comedian does four
minutes and gets applause, I'm not sure

765
00:51:31.679 --> 00:51:37.360
that's the best thing. Now,
this medium is different. The audience is

766
00:51:37.360 --> 00:51:38.800
hearing the audio version. You and
I are looking at each other in video

767
00:51:38.840 --> 00:51:43.840
as we record, and I'm smiling
and sometimes pointing at you and giving you

768
00:51:43.920 --> 00:51:47.519
some feedback. But I'm deliberately not
stepping on your stories. And that's back

769
00:51:47.639 --> 00:51:51.559
to the you know, everyone's going
to tell me this was a really good

770
00:51:51.559 --> 00:51:53.840
episode. What they're going to mean
is Mark was great, but I'm going

771
00:51:53.880 --> 00:51:57.440
to get credit for it because I'm
shutting up and letting you tell these wonderful

772
00:51:57.440 --> 00:51:59.679
stories. It's just different. I
could sit here and laugh, you know,

773
00:51:59.679 --> 00:52:01.960
at every thing you're saying. But
I'm just choosing phenomenal broadcaster. I

774
00:52:01.960 --> 00:52:06.960
mean, there's certain people that and
it took me and I'm not even putting

775
00:52:06.960 --> 00:52:10.159
myself in your league, but it
took me a while to be able to

776
00:52:12.960 --> 00:52:15.280
not step on people. Once in
a while, it'll still happen, like

777
00:52:15.360 --> 00:52:20.159
I'll if I feel like I need
to interject something, I try really not

778
00:52:20.239 --> 00:52:24.239
to let the person speak. But
I think you're right what you just said.

779
00:52:24.320 --> 00:52:30.400
But yeah, it's definitely you should
get the credit. I mean,

780
00:52:30.440 --> 00:52:32.519
you're setting me up for all these
things. You know what you're talking about,

781
00:52:32.519 --> 00:52:37.079
your professional and you make it easy
versus some of the people that have

782
00:52:37.199 --> 00:52:40.800
taught to me, and it's just
like pulling teeth sometimes, and those are

783
00:52:40.840 --> 00:52:44.519
the worst. I had a comic
on who was a fan of and I

784
00:52:44.559 --> 00:52:46.679
was just getting nothing back and I
cut it short. I just I couldn't.

785
00:52:46.760 --> 00:52:52.480
Yes, like, there's certain people
that, Yeah, I think there's

786
00:52:52.480 --> 00:52:55.320
only one or two maybe I couldn't
air. And I know Gilbert and Frank

787
00:52:55.400 --> 00:52:59.599
had the same thing that happened with
at least one or two people and it's

788
00:52:59.639 --> 00:53:02.840
just I guess they're trying as hard
as they can, but it doesn't really

789
00:53:04.159 --> 00:53:07.639
can't doesn't show that they are.
I would hope that they're trying their best

790
00:53:07.639 --> 00:53:12.000
and it's just what it is.
But yeah, you can tell pretty quickly

791
00:53:12.159 --> 00:53:16.760
if it's going well and if you
know, it's those times when it's like

792
00:53:16.800 --> 00:53:22.679
pulling teeth. Yeah, not fun. So Mark, I've kept you twice

793
00:53:22.920 --> 00:53:24.960
what I asked for. You've been
very generous. Oh yeah, it's great.

794
00:53:24.960 --> 00:53:30.639
Proper podcast plugs, Oh you're nice. Sell your show Inside Late Night

795
00:53:30.719 --> 00:53:35.840
with Mark Malcoff on Apple podcast,
on Spotify, wherever you get the podcast.

796
00:53:36.039 --> 00:53:39.400
Every week we are going to be
telling late night stories, the stories

797
00:53:39.400 --> 00:53:45.000
that people do not know for the
most part, and just going a deep

798
00:53:45.079 --> 00:53:49.920
dive. I love Dana Carvey and
David Spades podcast Fly on the Wall at

799
00:53:50.000 --> 00:53:52.719
SNL. They talk about SNL,
but I learned pretty much, very little

800
00:53:52.760 --> 00:53:57.199
to nothing. They don't go deep. It's very fun and I like it

801
00:53:57.239 --> 00:54:00.360
and people should check it out.
But this is the one where people will

802
00:54:00.400 --> 00:54:07.159
walk away. Were talking to Robert
Smigel about stuff or Spike Ferrist and where

803
00:54:07.559 --> 00:54:09.440
people are going to walk Spike was
great. See I just stepped on.

804
00:54:09.760 --> 00:54:13.639
It's great. He was was great. I was excited. I wanted to

805
00:54:13.639 --> 00:54:15.639
talk to him because I just knew
that there were stories that I did not

806
00:54:15.840 --> 00:54:22.480
think the audience probably knew about his
time at Dave in SNL that we would

807
00:54:22.519 --> 00:54:25.519
have those type of stories. And
I knew from his podcast he's a great

808
00:54:25.559 --> 00:54:30.039
storyteller. And yeah, he worked
in the medium. He had his own

809
00:54:30.079 --> 00:54:34.119
show on Fox for three years,
Talk Show with Spike Ferrist And so we're

810
00:54:34.480 --> 00:54:37.760
talking to people like that. We
had Rachel Dratch from Saturday Night Live,

811
00:54:37.320 --> 00:54:42.719
David cross Is coming up, Rob
Cordery from The Daily Show, Michael ian

812
00:54:42.800 --> 00:54:47.199
Black who was on the State,
and did Letterman's show Mean Worldwide Pants produced

813
00:54:47.360 --> 00:54:51.119
Ed which he was on, So
we is Letterman stories. He was the

814
00:54:51.199 --> 00:54:53.679
number two finalist when Craig Ferguson got
the gig, So we talk about all

815
00:54:53.719 --> 00:54:59.840
that drama. So yeah, just
really just talking to these people. Every

816
00:55:00.679 --> 00:55:04.000
I learned things I can use my
knowledge from over the years, which I

817
00:55:04.079 --> 00:55:07.320
have nowhere else. The old podcasts, I couldn't really tell these stories that

818
00:55:07.400 --> 00:55:14.840
I know as well, so there's
nowhere else I know that people are going

819
00:55:14.920 --> 00:55:19.159
to find these stories. It's great
when these people go on other shows and

820
00:55:19.199 --> 00:55:22.440
stuff, and occasionally stuff will come
up, but the research that I put

821
00:55:22.440 --> 00:55:28.960
into it hopefully will show. And
the guests have been very nice to comment

822
00:55:29.119 --> 00:55:32.719
on that. They appreciate that,
and we'll see where it goes. But

823
00:55:32.840 --> 00:55:38.480
I definitely think a big emphasis will
be on Saturday Night Live, stuff that

824
00:55:38.519 --> 00:55:43.920
has never been talked about and good
year for it. Yeah, I hope,

825
00:55:43.960 --> 00:55:46.039
so, I really do. And
then you know, I would love

826
00:55:46.079 --> 00:55:52.880
to have Cavet back. I would
love to talk to even I want to

827
00:55:52.880 --> 00:55:55.840
do devote a show or two to
certain shows like Magic Johnson or at Thick

828
00:55:55.840 --> 00:56:00.239
of the Night and talk to the
people that were there about what went wrong.

829
00:56:01.760 --> 00:56:06.079
So I will hit everything we can
talk to. I'd love to talk

830
00:56:06.119 --> 00:56:13.079
to Bob Costas later. With Bob
Costas is that show is incredible the people

831
00:56:13.159 --> 00:56:15.360
he talked to, and it was
almost like an early podcast. It had

832
00:56:15.360 --> 00:56:19.400
that feel of like that's what I
say, yeah, right, the first

833
00:56:19.400 --> 00:56:22.320
show. I would love to talk
to Costas. I've met him once or

834
00:56:22.360 --> 00:56:28.280
twice. But I'm just hoping to
talk to these people and just yeap the

835
00:56:28.519 --> 00:56:32.639
pull the curtain aside like we did
with Johnny Carson for almost four hundred episodes,

836
00:56:32.719 --> 00:56:37.159
So yeah, was it that.
Yeah, we I kind of kept

837
00:56:37.199 --> 00:56:42.199
going. I just was really really
tired and it just didn't make sense for

838
00:56:42.280 --> 00:56:45.679
me. But we did almost four
hundred episodes of that show. It was

839
00:56:45.719 --> 00:56:52.599
three hundred and ninety some certainly.
So. Yeah. Late Nighter dot Com

840
00:56:52.679 --> 00:56:55.119
Forward Slash podcasts. You can listen
to the podcast as well and see it

841
00:56:55.840 --> 00:56:59.880
pretty good. Normally. I think
they've been doing transcripts as well, which

842
00:56:59.920 --> 00:57:02.079
is really nice on Late Night or
and you can go to Late Night or

843
00:57:02.119 --> 00:57:05.599
just for if you want to know
ratings, the guests that are coming up,

844
00:57:05.599 --> 00:57:08.679
and they've Bill Carter talked exclusively to
Jimmy Fallon. I know they've had

845
00:57:09.119 --> 00:57:14.320
some of the Daily Show people exclusive
interviews. So definitely with Late Night Or

846
00:57:14.320 --> 00:57:16.360
they're doing stuff that you're not gonna
find anywhere else. And I'm glad that

847
00:57:16.400 --> 00:57:21.320
you like this site. Yeah,
I think it just it makes sense for

848
00:57:21.400 --> 00:57:23.480
me to be to be there with
them, and I'm glad that they're having

849
00:57:23.519 --> 00:57:28.199
me and they've just been very supportive
of me. Fab Well, I hope

850
00:57:28.239 --> 00:57:30.800
you come back, you know,
with someone something comes up the Late Night

851
00:57:30.880 --> 00:57:32.360
Maybe I'll use that in schume.
Oh please, this is great. I

852
00:57:32.360 --> 00:57:37.960
mean, back, I don't get
to talk to a lot of people like

853
00:57:37.079 --> 00:57:42.800
this that know what they're talking about
with Late Night in terms of the history,

854
00:57:43.000 --> 00:57:46.199
in terms of the power players.
It doesn't happen a lot that I

855
00:57:46.239 --> 00:57:51.400
get to talk to somebody like that. So, yeah, this was fun,

856
00:57:51.519 --> 00:57:53.719
and yeah, I'd love to come
back at some point, And yeah,

857
00:57:53.840 --> 00:57:57.559
I appreciate you asking me. Man, wasn't he great? I hope

858
00:57:57.599 --> 00:58:00.840
you really enjoyed that. Inside the
Late Night is the name of that podcast.

859
00:58:00.960 --> 00:58:04.800
Definitely check that one out. I
hope to have morek on again.

860
00:58:04.840 --> 00:58:07.840
I really enjoy that. Could have
done another hour easily back tomorrow with a

861
00:58:07.880 --> 00:58:09.679
normal episode. Hope you enjoy that
one. See ya.